David Cameron - war criminal?

[Caracus2k]

If we have learnt anything from the last 15 or so years its that when it comes to the middle east and north Africa at the very least its better to leave a largely secular if brutal leadership in place (even if they are possibly going to massacre sections of their own populace) then to intervene leading the inevitable chaos that ensues.

What grates a little is reading in papers that were enthusiastic supporters of the 'Arab spring' nonsense at the time that with the benefit of hindsight that they call Cameron a war criminal as it suits their anti tory bias

Democracy as we are largely used to it in Europe/ Australasia and North America seemingly just is not very compatible with the religious and cultural mores of large swathes of the MENA region and that's just a problem for the locals to sort out frankly

 

[zoomee]

Egypt was a joke - The people rose up against the pro-western puppet, democratically voted in someone we didn't like - so we decided to spread democracy but supporting the military in ousting the democratically elected regime (don't care who or what they are, they were democratically voted in - Who the *beeeeep* are we to go meddling? - the world police? - meh).

To quote gaddafi and provide evidence of my previous statement please see here:
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-884508

Gaddafi wrote, “They want to do to Libya what they did to Iraq and what they are itching to do to Iran. They want to take back the oil, which was nationalized by these country’s revolutions. They want to re-establish military bases that were shut down by the revolutions and to install client regimes that will subordinate the country’s wealth and labor to imperialist corporate interests. All else is lies and deception.”

Not only were there oil reserves in Libya at stake but mainly the problem here is that he tried to unite the african countries with a currency based on Gold.

any believe the NATO-led invasion of Libya was/is about oil and a vast wealth of other natural resources. Yet another critical element that few are aware of is the fact that Gaddafi had planned to introduce a single African currency made from gold. [Of this proposed African currency] Dr James Thring stated, “It’s one of these things that you have to plan almost in secret, because as soon as you say you’re going to change over from the dollar to something else, you’re going to be targeted … There were two conferences on this, in 1986 and 2000, organized by Gaddafi. … Most countries in Africa were keen.” This would have eradicated the US Dollar and Euro as trade currencies for Africa.

the ONLY surprise here is that our own Foreign Affairs Select Committee has recognised who was actually responsible for this chaos in Libya! One does have to wonder though if this same committee would have come to the same conclusion if Cameron was still in power.

No wonder he did one from british politics last week!!! - He knew this report was coming and slithered his way out of it.

More about Libya here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/libya-...-failed-state-after-nato-intervention/5408740

 

[Blackjack Davy]

Just something you might be interested in discussing in the hope it might somewhat enlighten/educate me.

Ok you want some opinions, heres mine.

It was a political decision to remove Gaddafi. Regime change. Simple as is. Just "we've put up with mug for 30 or more years and we're sick to death of him. Lockerbie. Terrorist sponsorship. Whatever he's been up to we want to get rid of him."

No thought given to who or what was to replace him. And look what a mess it resulted in. We've replaced one intolerable situation with another and possibly even worse now we've got ISIS on europe's doorstep and endless migrants coming over the sea.

Short sighted, opportunistic as in "I see a chance to make myself look good in the polls" maybe (Cameron always played it with one eye on the polls) but "War criminal" is political points scoring from the Guardian.

 

[arknor]

What crimes? Why do you ask if he's a war criminal? If we're going to throw around baseless lines, how about, 'Merlin5 - super paedo?'?

the last time I checked the only authority anyone had was to enact a zone of peace and only attack gaddafis forces if they were trying to assault the city.

instead they just bombed all of gaddafis army anyway

 

[thep02]

If I was to see bliar or camwrongun on fire, as I would love to, I would urinate on them but not enough to put out the fire.

 

[Tefal]

If I was to see bliar or camwrongun

whenever I see **** like this I assume the person's IQ is so far below normal they actually think its witty.

 

[Orionaut]

ISIS started in Iraq

And just how did that come about?

 

[dowie]

the last time I checked the only authority anyone had was to enact a zone of peace and only attack gaddafis forces if they were trying to assault the city.

instead they just bombed all of gaddafis army anyway

LOL - care to explain how that is a war crime?

here is the resolution:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973

note these two lines:

demands the immediate establishment of a ceasefire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians;
[...]
authorizes all necessary means to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas, except for a "foreign occupation force";

so when Gaddafi didn't stick to a ceasefire and instead marched on bengazi they were well within their rights to bomb the **** out of his forces... and no, attacking military targets isn't a 'war crime'.

 

[dowie]

And just how did that come about?

Well mostly thanks to a Jordanian chap called al-Zarqawi, but not really relevant to this thread about Libya so perhaps you can go and read up on it or start a new thread. Main point from the post you've chosen to quote is that David Cameron didn't create ISIS.

 

[Orionaut]

Well mostly thanks to a Jordanian chap called al-Zarqawi, but not really relevant to this thread about Libya so perhaps you can go and read up on it or start a new thread. Main point from the post you've chosen to quote is that David Cameron didn't create ISIS.

No, Cameron (specifically) did not.

However, our foreign policy since 1989 did!

Cameron's policies were a continuity of what had gone on before.

Really (And yes, I DID say so at the time, in 1989!) We really should have let Hussain keep Kuwait! The dispute really wasn't worth burning the World over!

 

[stopper]

One does have to wonder though if this same committee would have come to the same conclusion if Cameron was still in power.

Office matey, in office. Not "power".
Governed by popular consent means we hold the power. They are elected by us.
Just a pity we forgot how to use that power over the last 20 years.

 

[dowie]

No, Cameron (specifically) did not.

However, our foreign policy since 1989 did!

Cameron's policies were a continuity of what had gone on before.

Really (And yes, I DID say so at the time, in 1989!) We really should have let Hussain keep Kuwait! The dispute really wasn't worth burning the World over!

Rather irrelevant as the thread is about Cameron and the claim I quoted and disputed is that Cameron created ISIS, it doesn't need to be side tracked into another general discussion about Western foreign policy over the past few decades just as not every politics thread is an excuse to rant about brexit.

 

[Merlin5]

What time did Iain Dale ask if he was a war criminal? I'm interested to hear as I subscribe to LBC podcasts.

It was Ian Collins last night (wednesday), I just heard the start of his show at 10pm when he introduced the topic.

 

[albert]

Blair and Bush still haven't been arrested and tried for war crimes ......

 

[Em3bbs]

It was Ian Collins last night (wednesday), I just heard the start of his show at 10pm when he introduced the topic.

Ah right, he's just clickbait radio now unfortunately. A shame as he used to be good on talkradio/talksport years ago, and LBC used to be good in the nights on weekdays.

 

[CorrectHorseBattery]

If we truly cared about spreading democracy we would invade North Korea. But we won't. Why's that I wonder.

 

[Tefal]

If we truly cared about spreading democracy we would invade North Korea. But we won't. Why's that I wonder.

The deaths of millions of South koreans.

Devestation of the world's economy?

The usage of large numbers of chemical and biological and possibly nuclear weapons?

The spread of nuclear an rocket technology on the blackmarket as the regime gets desperate?

And you know the potential end of the world by starting a war with china.

But other than that yeah sounds like a plan

 

[zoomee]

The deaths of millions of South koreans.

Devestation of the world's economy?

The usage of large numbers of chemical and biological and possibly nuclear weapons?

The spread of nuclear an rocket technology on the blackmarket as the regime gets desperate?

And you know the potential end of the world by starting a war with china.

But other than that yeah sounds like a plan

Never stopped us from doing that to Iraq did it? Only reason we're not doing the same to Syria is due to Russias involvement.

He's right though - there's other scenarios where there are loads of UN resolutions against countries but we seem to pick and choose what we like - prime example being Israel - "supposed only democracy in the middle-east" thats incurred more than 60+ UN resolutions but we can just ignore them and concentrate on the 'other' countries yeah?

This whole "regime change" marlarky has to stop. Until we don't hold our politicians to account it will never happen. They can come and go as they please more or less.

How long before Cameron becomes Middle-east peace envoy

 

[Richdog]

If we had not taken out Saddam and Gaddafi and de-stabilized the areas then there would be no ISIS and no humanitarian crisis in the Middle East, and no floods of migrants. Fact.

As cruel and horrible as these men were, life was infinitely better for the people when they were in power. Instead, we now have truly apocalyptic situations in those countries, and it really is our fault.

 

[RDM]

Dictator David Cameron

Fairly rubbish at being a dictator having been defeated in the commons several times and then standing down after a referendum he lost. Most dictators can manage to get 99% in referendums they run...