Deciding if it's worth upgrading speakers

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Hi everyone!

I am trying to decide if it's worth upgrading my home cinema speakers. I am at a loss to understand what I would need to buy in order for it to be an upgrade. I currently have a Pioneer SC-LX58 Revciever and am using some speakers I picked up for a bargain price with a reciever some years ago.

Yamaha NS-100's for the fronts (these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hykZfYHvOXc)
Yamaha NS-C55 for the center

From what I understand in their day these were considered pretty good and as speaker tech doesn't really move all that quickily I am trying to understand if something like for example B&W 606's which are entry level would sound significantly better or I would be looking at something higher up the range. Short of buying some and listening to them in my lounge I am not sure there is any other way. The room is largish at approx 4.5 x 4m

I don't have any particular issues with my current setup, but I don't know if I am missing out. If that makes any sense?!

Any thoughts?
 
If you have 3 speakers as part of your setup, then the next step is to make it 5.1, so you would need to buy a subwoofer & a pair of rear speakers. In an ideal world all of your speakers would be the same make, so that would mean another pair of yamaha speakers of a similar age, but they don't have to be.

The subwoofer on the other hand doesnt have to be the same make as the rest of the other speakers, as long as its a good 'un. BK are good https://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers.htm
 
Sorry should have been clear, it is 5.1 already, actually I have 5.1.4 capability as I installed some ceiling speakers. I would be looking to upgrade the fronts / center as from what I understand the surrounds / effects speakers don't matter so much.

My sub is an Eltax Atomic 10" and I have Eltax bi-polar rears which I think are likely still good enough.
 
The UK is a hell of a tough market for foreign speaker manufacturers to crack. We have such a lot of homegrown world-class talent in the small to medium sized speaker market that any brand from another country has to work very hard to stand a chance. So it is with Yamaha.

We don't see much in the way of the brand's higher-end speakers here, so what does make it to these shores tends to be the more budget-focused product or stuff that's going end-of-life and so the UK marketing manager gets it at a knockdown price. I don't know the speakers personally, but a quick Google suggests that folk were picking these up in the 90s on clearance deals for under £80/pr. At that price there's really not a lot to sniff at. They were great value in their day.

It's true that speaker tech is the slowest to evolve, but it does still progress. There's a lot of engineering and design that goes in to today's speakers. The performance is helped by reductions in manufacturing costs from Far East production.

Imagining if we had a time machine, and brought the NS100 here from the 90s, their price adjusted for inflation would be £150. The B&W 606 are currently on clearance, down from £550 to around £400. The question then is would I really pitch a £150 speaker against a £400 speaker in an A/B demo? The answer is no. It's not a fair contest. They're just too far apart. A better comparison would be had with Dali Spektor 2, Mission LX-2, or Q Acoustics 3020i.

The B&W speakers might be more entry-level as far as that brand's range goes, but their original RRP of £550 represent the midrange price for many other brand's standmount speakers. It's all relative.

Of all the technology you can change in a system, speakers make the biggest immediate change because of voicing and design. If there's one thing to store demo then to quickly find what voicing suits you, it's speakers.

In a pure stereo system, the 606 produce a fair amount of bass for their size due in part to the deep cabinets. This means you need to be more careful with room placement. They're also tilted firmly towards brightness, and that means they'll sound fatiguing if partnered with bright-sounding electronics. Finally, they can be very revealing of poor source material.

You're planning on putting them into an AV system where the voicing of the centre speaker needs to be matched if the front should field isn't to sound odd. Changing the front L&R alone then seems like a really bad idea unless the Yams are very bright too.

You current speakers aren't broken. You're just bored and itching for a change. There's nothing wrong with that if you think you've outgrown the sound. If it was me though in your shoes, I would wait until audio stores reopen, then book a demo and take my existing speakers with me for comparison purposes. Where a dealer knows what they're doing, you'll be able to gauge if you've ever heard the full potential of the NS100s in your home system, then hear what progressively better speaker models can add.
 
Thanks for that insight, whilst generally happy I think it's just that it's hard to know if you are missing out by investing in more. I occasionally think that vocals could be better, the center channel and fronts would be my aim. I am not opposed to the indea of also replacing the rears if that makes a large difference, if I was targetting any one thing specifically it would be the center but I understand you need to pay careful attention that it's a match for the fronts.

Sounds like I will have to find a decent audio store, never occured to me that I might be able to take along mine to demo some others along side.
 
Thanks for that insight, whilst generally happy I think it's just that it's hard to know if you are missing out by investing in more. I occasionally think that vocals could be better, the center channel and fronts would be my aim. I am not opposed to the indea of also replacing the rears if that makes a large difference, if I was targetting any one thing specifically it would be the center but I understand you need to pay careful attention that it's a match for the fronts.

Sounds like I will have to find a decent audio store, never occured to me that I might be able to take along mine to demo some others along side.

I guess you could say that I'm old school when it comes to demos. I started my journey in Hi-Fi in the early/mid 80s. That was probably the golden age of the Hi-Fi industry. There were a lot of new brands and new thinking challenging the status quo. There was some really good Hi-Fi press, and the dealer culture was very different. I can't speak for the whole of the country back then, but looking at the features in mags, they do visits to dealers with a challenge on what they'd recommend as a system for a specified budget; £500 / £1000 / £1500 were typical. The journalist would then play the customer going through the dem process changing different bits and testing the dealers' knowledge.

Back then dealers hadn't become lazy, and customers were awake to the idea that the shop floor demo through a comparator really wasn't the right way to audition good stereo gear. If you're too young to remember this, High Street shops such as Laskeys, Dixons and the Tottenham Court Rd stores (all now long-defunct Mid-Fi retailers) would have their entire range of turntables/cassette decks/amps/speakers all wired to a big switching box - the comparator - that allowed any combination to be selected. Brands such as Linn realised that they had no chance competing against the noise of people chatting, the till, the phone, traffic noise, other demos(!). They promoted the idea of a demo room that was closer to a customer's living room; quiet. A new breed of dealers sprang up. Hi-Fi retailers competed on service and being able to get the best from the gear they sold.

As a customer, you'd walk in and have a chat about the sort of stuff you were looking for, then book a return visit for a demo of a shortlist of kit. You might then follow that up with a home demo - particularly with speakers - to find out of what you heard in-store would be replicated at home. Then, get this, after the sale was made the dealer would come an install the gear so you could be sure it would perform at its best. This would go for a £200 turntable as much as for a £3,000 system. It was all very different from today.

The Hi-Fi buying general public has sort of forgotten that purchasing good quality stereo gear is a bespoke activity. Taking some bit of your own gear along is a perfectly valid activity, just so long as as you agree it with the dealer beforehand. It gives you a baseline for comparison.
 
That's exactly it really. In an ideal world I would short list maybe 2 or 3 sets, try them out in my lounge and return the ones I didn't like. I guess people do that, seems an awful lot of hassle to be returning speakers if you buy a set and they are not a noticeable improvement.
 
That's exactly it really. In an ideal world I would short list maybe 2 or 3 sets, try them out in my lounge and return the ones I didn't like. I guess people do that, seems an awful lot of hassle to be returning speakers if you buy a set and they are not a noticeable improvement.

Maybe you're missing the point; the shop demo is the opportunity to draw up a shortlist, test if they (a) make enough difference and (b) have a sound that you are expecting / like. This is where a good dealer listens to you and points you in the right direction; maybe even suggests a brand that you hadn't considered.

I remember a time before I got in to doing this myself. It was the late 90s and home cinema was just starting to really take off. I used to get mags from the US as well as the UK and devoured all I could about products.

When I saw the B&W DM601 with the matching centre and surrounds I was smitten. The mag reviews raved about them too. I was at the Sevenoaks store in Manchester on business, so asked the guys if I could have a listen. Oh boy, that didn't go anything like I expected. I hated them. To me they sounded sterile and dead. If I had been demoing for real, that's when I'd have fallen back on the dealer's expertise.

Once you've found the one pair that you feel ticks all your boxes, after having listened and whittled it down, that's the pair you take home to try. The shop's demo pair, the pair that's already run in - because when you buy new speakers they take time to relax and open up, so you never judge on a brand new pair of speakers because they could take weeks to fully reveal their character.
 
As @lucid has said, demoing speakers is one of those must do's with hi-fi or av systems. Buying blind or just off of reviews is a big big mistake.
I bought my first set of speakers, Celestion Ditton 15's, when in my teens. They stayed with me until my early 30's (1990). Then a pair of B&W CDM1 SE's until 2010. Since then a pair of Spendor A9's.
For well over 40 years and 3 pairs of speakers they all have one thing in common, they were all bought after extensive showroom demo's and even longer listening at home before parting with cash. Get it right and you will have many many happy years of listening. Get it wrong and you will never be really happy, always chasing something "better"
 
Sorry... Just busy. I do get you points, it's all great if you can find a store with staff that are actually intrested in helping you. A long time ago when we had a local Richer Sounds they were super helpful but my experiences since then haven't been great. I am afraid with myself approaching someone for help / guidance and recieving a cold unhelp response or being treated like an idiot where I am clearly just a nuicience puts me off pretty much for life. I've developed an aversion to sales people opting to avoid shops wherever possible :)

All your points are very valid. Excluding PC speakers / Cinema / Events the amount I have listened to over the last 20 years I can count on one hand, I have no idea even of what a good lounge system can potentially be. Equally the budget I have ever spent on speakers has been pretty low trending towards zero, my first setup being the one Richer Sounds put together with Eltax Symphony's. I only replaced them when I picked up a Reciever along with the Yamaha NS-100's/NS-C55/E-55's for a crazy low amount of money and of course (Probably not of course) they sounded much better having larger drivers and being bi-amped etc.

I don't think I am someone who really always chases better, I am more of a bang for buck person. I would rather have the 90% of the experience at 70% the price kind of thinking. I am in a position now where I can afford to spend some more money on the sound my fear is that I could go and spend £1000 on some speakers and it be barely noticeable to me. Equally it could blow me away and I could be asking myself why didn't I sort this out sooner! I just don't know.
 
I think many of us can emphasise with that situation of being ignored or not taken seriously in some or other store. The following doesn't excuse that, but in some ways it goes to mitigating things. This business does attract a lot of dreamers and tyre kickers. It doesn't help either with the preoccupation with price (both buyers and sellers) in what is essentially a boutique-type sales situation. It's a contradiction. Slashing big chunks off prices means selling high volumes to stay in business, and that's the polar opposite of what's required to do the full-service sales model of single speaker demos, home equipment loans and all the aftersales backup.

Overarching all of this is people, on both sides of the counter. We are complex creatures, full of our own contradictions that sit on top of the already-challenging problems of communication.

A lot of what you've written so far points towards a person who needs and should value the services of a demonstration. I've told you that and so has @kitfit1. It's up to you whether you take that advice. If you spend any time in dedicated Hi-Fi forums you'll get the same message. None of us are saying this to waste our breath. It does make a difference when you're buying new. Now, here's something to consider; if you're set on buying blind, then why buy from a dealer at all? Save a heap of cash and go buy second-hand instead. Depending on the age/condition/desirability of the speakers you could either get a much better front+centre package, or buy a complete set of 5 speakers for what you plan to spend on just a new stereo pair.

Buying used means you already know the speakers are run in, so you'll get an instant impression of what they really sound like. All you have to do is make sure they're positioned to give their best. There'll also be a bunch of reviews and lots of opinion on the most popular speakers, and that means both that you can find out the good/bad before you go searching, and also weigh up if the public opinion matches your own experience.

Buying used does come with its own issues though. What you save in money you spend in time. You're also gambling that what you're being offered is up to par, and by that I mean that the pictures you'll see of the gear accurately represent the real condition. This is why you should always go to view and listen to the speakers before parting with your cash. You'll have realised at this point that this can all be very time consuming. It is. There's no two ways about it.

Where you're cash rich but time poor then buying new from a decent dealer is the quickest and surest way to get the right product. Buying blind carries a much bigger chance that you end up swapping the speakers much sooner, and that's a great way to throw money down the drain. You'll buy something else too: Restlessness. That constant nag, even after the usual buyer's remorse has faded, that there's something better.

For the cash poor time rich people then second-hand is a great option.

The issue of finding a good dealer can be tricky though. Even though I'm in the trade, I still have a relationship with a couple of dealers whose judgement I respect and trust. If I was looking at something new for my own music system then they'd be the people I would go to. They're not on my doorstep though. They're both a good 30 miles away, but the journey is well worth it.

Find a dealer, even if that means travelling. Be straight with them; say you're looking at new speakers but not sure where you need to pitch the budget to make an appreciable difference, so you'd like to bring in your speakers to compare. If you like what you hear then you'll buy.

You mentioned bi-amping the Yamahas. Have you ever wondered how you can really bi-amp from one amplifier? The speakers are drawing all their power from the same amp which runs counter-intuitive to the idea of bi-amping which means to run from two (or more) separate amps. Yes, the receiver may have the feature, and I don't doubt that it sounds different, but that's no necessarily the same thing as sounding better. It's just a thought.
 
The UK is a hell of a tough market for foreign speaker manufacturers to crack. We have such a lot of homegrown world-class talent in the small to medium sized speaker market that any brand from another country has to work very hard to stand a chance. So it is with Yamaha.

Homegrown once perhaps but that was a while ago, now almost everything has been bought up by the Chinese. So far as I can tell the only one left now in UK ownership is Monitor Audio who do produce some nice speakers, but again they are produced in China.
 
Homegrown once perhaps but that was a while ago, now almost everything has been bought up by the Chinese. So far as I can tell the only one left now in UK ownership is Monitor Audio who do produce some nice speakers, but again they are produced in China.

Whilst there are aspects of that that are true, I would point out that ownership and design direction are not necessarily the same thing.

The UK has been-, is-, and remains- a tough market to crack for foreign speakers brands.
 
Homegrown once perhaps but that was a while ago, now almost everything has been bought up by the Chinese. So far as I can tell the only one left now in UK ownership is Monitor Audio who do produce some nice speakers, but again they are produced in China.

There is of course Spendor. Not only UK owned but UK manufactured and UK R&D'd, that includes drivers and all done from one factory.
 
What’s your budget to upgrade?

better speakers are.. well.. better so upgrading is always good.

in my experience the difference is always pretty special as you move up the price tier in audio
 
I was thinking of upgrading fronts and center so I imagine somewhere around £300-£500 for the fronts and maybe £300 for the center from looking around at what seems reasonable. I have discovered after looking at a few that some are MUCH deeper and a bit taller than my current one. Due to my projector screen I only have a limted gap between the screen and the top of the units, so I think choice may be limited somewhat.

On the 2nd hand subject, I am fine with used speakers. It actually led me to take a look at what was available and I actually discovered there is a larger center than the one I current have in the same range. Contemplating if it's worth trying that as a cheaper quick win as a lot of my niggles are around speech clarity. Trouble is I then discovered the thing is a boheamoah at 30cm deep and 21cm tall! The drivers are the same as those in the NS-100's, although I appreciate bigger is not equal to better.
 
If you are currently happy with the range of your Yamaha speakers, I see no reason to upgrade. I usually tell friends to first invest in their speakers and build around them. A good set of speakers can last you a life time...maybe even a couple of life times.
I bought my Infinity Betas in 2008 and I will not replace them unless they get damaged.

My point being, if the speakers sound good, can handle the power you provide, get as loud and remain clean doing so as you need then worry about upgrading something else.
 
If you are currently happy with the range of your Yamaha speakers, I see no reason to upgrade. I usually tell friends to first invest in their speakers and build around them. A good set of speakers can last you a life time...maybe even a couple of life times.
I bought my Infinity Betas in 2008 and I will not replace them unless they get damaged.

My point being, if the speakers sound good, can handle the power you provide, get as loud and remain clean doing so as you need then worry about upgrading something else.


I thought this with my KEFs. When I heard other brands and the superior KEF ranges, I realised what I was missing out on... got on the upgrade bandwagon.

In a forum where people spend £1000 on a GPU, I'm still surprised how neglected their sound and audio can be. :)
 
I was thinking of upgrading fronts and center so I imagine somewhere around £300-£500 for the fronts and maybe £300 for the center from looking around at what seems reasonable. I have discovered after looking at a few that some are MUCH deeper and a bit taller than my current one. Due to my projector screen I only have a limted gap between the screen and the top of the units, so I think choice may be limited somewhat.

On the 2nd hand subject, I am fine with used speakers. It actually led me to take a look at what was available and I actually discovered there is a larger center than the one I current have in the same range. Contemplating if it's worth trying that as a cheaper quick win as a lot of my niggles are around speech clarity. Trouble is I then discovered the thing is a boheamoah at 30cm deep and 21cm tall! The drivers are the same as those in the NS-100's, although I appreciate bigger is not equal to better.

A couple of thoughts:

1 - If you have some space limitations that will affect any potential upgrade path - and you've come on to a forum asking people for advice - then you should really list those limitations otherwise you end up wasting the time of the people you've asked for help. I realise of course that it wasn't your deliberate intension; but now I've pointed it out then please bare it in mind for the future.

What are the space limitations?
How is your current centre speaker housed? (On top of an open rack / On a shelf?)
How are the F LR speakers for space?
What else haven't you mentioned that will restrict product choices?


2 - What have you done with your set-up so far to improve centre dialogue intelligibility? The Pioneer has MCACC and MCACC Pro. Have you used any of the features, and if so, what were the results?

Have you done anything with speakers positions or what they're supported upon to improve the results you're getting?
Are the intelligibility issues related to the volume i.e. worse at higher volumes?
 
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