Deciding if it's worth upgrading speakers

[WhiteNoise]

I thought this with my KEFs. When I heard other brands and the superior KEF ranges, I realised what I was missing out on... got on the upgrade bandwagon.

In a forum where people spend £1000 on a GPU, I'm still surprised how neglected their sound and audio can be.

LOL and that is where you and others go wrong! You went and listened to superior speakers!! Anytime we do that then upgrading does become a need. haha Its our nature I believe. I go out of my way to avoid listening to higher end speakers for this very reason. I know what I have makes me happy and I know there is better out there but if i don't hear the better, I can't miss the better.

God I have spent thousands of dollars on audio equipment over my 48 years and I'm at a point now where I am quite happy. I try very hard to stay out of audio forums because when I hang out on those forums I always end up wanting to upgrade or buy some new gear. I find staying away allows me to enjoy what I have.

 

[aoaaron]

LOL and that is where you and others go wrong! You went and listened to superior speakers!! Anytime we do that then upgrading does become a need. haha Its our nature I believe. I go out of my way to avoid listening to higher end speakers for this very reason. I know what I have makes me happy and I know there is better out there but if i don't hear the better, I can't miss the better.

God I have spent thousands of dollars on audio equipment over my 48 years and I'm at a point now where I am quite happy. I try very hard to stay out of audio forums because when I hang out on those forums I always end up wanting to upgrade or buy some new gear. I find staying away allows me to enjoy what I have.

Agreed. In reality it’s better to stay of all forums including this one! Speaking to enthusiasts eventually leads to enthusiast level equipment and enthusiast prices

 

[Capt Doufos]

A couple of thoughts:

1 - If you have some space limitations that will affect any potential upgrade path - and you've come on to a forum asking people for advice - then you should really list those limitations otherwise you end up wasting the time of the people you've asked for help. I realise of course that it wasn't your deliberate intension; but now I've pointed it out then please bare it in mind for the future.

What are the space limitations?
How is your current centre speaker housed? (On top of an open rack / On a shelf?)
How are the F LR speakers for space?
What else haven't you mentioned that will restrict product choices?


2 - What have you done with your set-up so far to improve centre dialogue intelligibility? The Pioneer has MCACC and MCACC Pro. Have you used any of the features, and if so, what were the results?

Have you done anything with speakers positions or what they're supported upon to improve the results you're getting?
Are the intelligibility issues related to the volume i.e. worse at higher volumes?

Sorry, center size just hadn't occured to me, it was not intentional. The current center I have seemed typical of all those I have seen to date, it just never occured that it would have been an issue. There are no other restrictions, it's just the screen as it stands comes down to almost the top of the center.

Max center size behind/under the screen is approx 23cm deep and 13cm high. I could pull it forward slightly for movie viewing, that would allow another couple of CM height and more depth. Pictures probably speak more. The angle below looks like the screen obsures the center but it doesn't. For scale the room is approx 4.3m wide.

As for MCACC Pro, yes I have used that. I made sure to use an extension so the mic was placed in an accurate listening position. As usual all the demo videos, Dolby, THX, ATMOS etc. sound amazeballs. I find it really difficult to test diaglog. All content is viewed via my HTPC which has a GTX 1060 connected to the AMP via HDMI. All audio is passed through and decoded by the reciever.

The only thing to note during the MCACC setup is that a couple of speakers reported as being the wrong polarity, but I double and triple checked that wasn't the case. After reading up it seemed that this can happen and if you are sure it's correct just go with it.

 

[Capt Doufos]

Agreed. In reality it’s better to stay of all forums including this one! Speaking to enthusiasts eventually leads to enthusiast level equipment and enthusiast prices

I agree with this one. Ignorance is bliss

 

[lucid]

13cm for a centre speaker height is seriously limiting. There wouldn't have been a matching B&W centre speaker to go with the 606s you fancied. The sort of typical low height centres such as the Yamaha also tend to be low rent/budget items. They have small diameter midrange drivers.

The main objective of better centre speakers is to get improved dialogue clarity, and the easiest way to achieve that is with larger midrange drivers and a bigger speaker cabinet. This is so the speaker can handle more of the male vocal range which can extend down to roughly 85Hz. Some of this can be achieved with higher quality driver tech and really good cabinet design, but it costs.

For example, the three lowest-profile centre speakers I can think of are the Klipsch R-34C @ £360 (Height 13.3cm), and then two from Monitor Audio; the Radius 225 @ £260 (H = 14.0cm) and Apex A40 @ £500 (H = 14.0cm).

The Klipsch goes for multiple 3.5" midrange drivers - 4 in total. It keeps the height down but limits the bass reach to 82Hz @-3dB. In effect then, the bass level is already dropping off and handing over to the sub at some point between 100 and 90Hz. Also, being horn loaded, the Klipsch sounds very very different from conventional dome-tweeter speakers. You'll either love the sound or hate it. It's very polarising.

The Radius range from MA is very well respected, and they are true mini monitors, not just small speakers. I've used them quite a bit, and in some instances partnered them with some very high-end subs to produce results far bigger than their size suggests. However, they aren't the most efficient speakers and given their almost square end profile, the cabinets don't develop bass deep enough to carry the whole male vocal range. MA quotes a frequency range for the Radius 225 down to 80Hz, but they leave out the +/- XdB figure. From other spec sheets I know they they use +/-6dB, and that means that this speaker need a crossover point somewhere between 100 and 110Hz despite the advantage of slightly larger diameter mids than the Klipsch.

The Apex A40 proves the case for better drivers and smarter cabinet design. Used as a centre, it has the same height of 14cm as the Radius 225, yet packs in 2x 14ch diameter drivers that fill the fascia height. The cab is shallow but long and very rigid. This helps the speaker dig much deeper. It gets down to 50Hz (+/-6dB) so it's still doing useful business south of 80Hz.

The Apex A40 is an LCR speaker. That is to say that it can be used in any position across the front sound stage either as an LR speaker pair or as three matched units. MA voicing means it can also be mixed and matched with conventional MA speakers such as the Silver 50 or Silver 100, or the older Silver RX series. At a push, you could partner them with Bronze but the performance gap would start to show up.


One final thought - No centre speaker at all.

All decent AV receiver will support something called Phantom Centre Mode. This is where the front LR speakers are used to create a virtual centre speaker. In essence it's playing on the imaging that stereo speakers use in music systems. The results depend heavily on the speakers and the quality of the setup though. Your corner placement of the L&R speakers is a no-go for a start. That wrecks the ability of stereo speakers to image correctly.

 

[Flake87]

There is of course Spendor. Not only UK owned but UK manufactured and UK R&D'd, that includes drivers and all done from one factory.

Spendor appear to have some strong connections to India, although the main share holder is British and owns several audio companies including SME.

Wilson Benesch appear to be still UK owned though.

 

[Capt Doufos]

13cm for a centre speaker height is seriously limiting. There wouldn't have been a matching B&W centre speaker to go with the 606s you fancied. The sort of typical low height centres such as the Yamaha also tend to be low rent/budget items. They have small diameter midrange drivers....

Thank you for all that information, lots to think about

 

[slim01]

With regards to speaker tech not changing much its true.

I took my 20 year old kefs to try against the new ones and mine sounded slightly better I rekkon. Some others sounded great (monitor audio br 6)but still hard to tell a difference and even harder to justify a £800 "upgrade"

 

[slim01]

Do you have a richer sounds by you you can test in?

Or Sevenoaks? They'll likely have the b&ws

 

[slim01]

Sorry, center size just hadn't occured to me, it was not intentional. The current center I have seemed typical of all those I have seen to date, it just never occured that it would have been an issue. There are no other restrictions, it's just the screen as it stands comes down to almost the top of the center.

Max center size behind/under the screen is approx 23cm deep and 13cm high. I could pull it forward slightly for movie viewing, that would allow another couple of CM height and more depth. Pictures probably speak more. The angle below looks like the screen obsures the center but it doesn't. For scale the room is approx 4.3m wide.

As for MCACC Pro, yes I have used that. I made sure to use an extension so the mic was placed in an accurate listening position. As usual all the demo videos, Dolby, THX, ATMOS etc. sound amazeballs. I find it really difficult to test diaglog. All content is viewed via my HTPC which has a GTX 1060 connected to the AMP via HDMI. All audio is passed through and decoded by the reciever.

The only thing to note during the MCACC setup is that a couple of speakers reported as being the wrong polarity, but I double and triple checked that wasn't the case. After reading up it seemed that this can happen and if you are sure it's correct just go with it.

Wow! That looks sick! Absolutely no need for cinema haha

 

[Capt Doufos]

Thanks! If only the ceiling was a little higher so I could get a decent centre under there!

 

[aoaaron]

With regards to speaker tech not changing much its true.

I took my 20 year old kefs to try against the new ones and mine sounded slightly better I rekkon. Some others sounded great (monitor audio br 6)but still hard to tell a difference and even harder to justify a £800 "upgrade"

Speakers do improve imo.

but more importantly, a better speaker is better. So although your kef might sound good, if you had the cash and upgraded to a revel or jtr speaker, I think you’d be blown away.

 

[slim01]

Speakers do improve imo.

but more importantly, a better speaker is better. So although your kef might sound good, if you had the cash and upgraded to a revel or jtr speaker, I think you’d be blown away.

Oh for sure, but aren't those jtrs like £2500 and up? I'm sure if I spent £2500 on kef or b&w I'd be blown away as well!

However what I mean is I'm not sure the tech that's being put into models around the same price point is improving... much.

Perhaps I'm doing it wrong though... I compared the kefs to some £700 monitor audio bronzes, £900 b&ws and some £600 dali zensor (or something like that).
The kefs q55.2s were around £500 in the 90's but I guess in todays money that's more like £1500 lol.

On paper though the new models usually share similar specs with their older ones in the same point of the range. I mean... With most brands you've got your smaller cheaper floorstanders, the medium size with an extra bass unit or two, and expensive big ones with bigger drivers. I almost always go for the mid range.

 

[slim01]

But then you've got the different tiers in the range, which I guess is where the better tech would end up. Monitor audio bronze vs silver vs gold I guess. Or kef q vs reference.