Degradation: Would you buy a second hand wolfdale ?

hernaldo · 2 Mar 2008 at 01:04

Tooks said:
What cobblers?!

Do people just make this stuff up or what? There is no way you could know that.

Let me get this straight. A few people have put way too much volts through their CPU, and are now crying it's 'broken'?

They may be the latest and greatest from Intel these 45nm chips, but like any CPU they're not indestructible.

Buying any CPU 2nd hand is a risk at the end of the day, but I don't see why it's any more risky than buying any other chip.

Its risky buying some things 2nd hand, and along with TVs, CPUs are one of them.

If you're after stock speeds then fine, of course. But we're talking about chips here that generally overclock ridiculously well, so by buying 2nd hand you've got a much much higher chance of getting a poor chip.

1. Nobody sells a good clocker for peanuts.
2. Nobody who is selling a good clocker, sells it without some claim that it is a good clocker.

So, if you buy a chip that has no claims of speed\volts\performance...

Damn good chance that you're going to end up with a crappy chip

Not worth it.

hernaldo · 2 Mar 2008 at 01:07

helmutcheese said:
Pump 2.0v through your AMD Barton 24/7 ands it will Degrad faster, there is no difference here.

I ran my Mobile at upto 1.9v then was able to drop to 1.875v with better cooling at 2.8GHZ for years.

You pump that much through an AMD barton and it prolly won't boot again.

Its a totally different comparison, these intel chips have been show to basically run at infinite clock speeds as long as plenty of volts and enough cooling is present.

Bartons were not like that, you could freeze them back to the ice age and they'd still hit a wall not that higher than high end water etc.

Lightnix · 2 Mar 2008 at 01:37

Eh, the new wolfdales are on a smaller manufacturing process which means a higher electrical resistance. That in turn means that their tolerance to higher voltages is a bit lower, so that means people who're shoving the same voltages through a wolfdale as they would a Conroe are seeing their chips die.

Yay physics.

WJA96 · 2 Mar 2008 at 08:51

What makes me REALLY sceptical about all this is the fact that there were dozens of top overclockers who had ES chips for ages, and they had them juiced up massively under phase and all sorts. Not a mention of electron degradation.

Now a thread springs up that doesn't say - "Don't overvolt your Wolfdale" nope - it's entitled "Don't buy a second-hand one". To me, that says one thing and one thing only - someone is trying to drive down the second-hand market, not warn about electron degradation.

I'm making no secret of what performance I'm getting from mine, nor of how many volts I'm pushing through them, so anyone who buys mine second-hand (and they will) will know exactly what they're buying.

Unfortunately, when you buy stuff second-hand, there is always the high likelihood that you are buying someone else's rubbish.

Tooks · 2 Mar 2008 at 09:50

hernaldo said:
Its risky buying some things 2nd hand, and along with TVs, CPUs are one of them.

If you're after stock speeds then fine, of course. But we're talking about chips here that generally overclock ridiculously well, so by buying 2nd hand you've got a much much higher chance of getting a poor chip.

1. Nobody sells a good clocker for peanuts.
2. Nobody who is selling a good clocker, sells it without some claim that it is a good clocker.

So, if you buy a chip that has no claims of speed\volts\performance...

Damn good chance that you're going to end up with a crappy chip

Not worth it.

As with all things purchasing related, it should be buyer beware.

I've never sold a pup of a chip, I'm nice like that (If it breaks, it goes in the bin!), and nor have I ever purchased one. The Q6600 I'm running in this PC is third hand, from this forum, and it works like a charm. You just need to ask a few questions when buying and use the trust system.

It's pure speculation on your part that CPU's sold without claims of clocks and/or sold at an 'overclocking premium' are going to stand a fair chance of being 'crappy'. Most people on the For Sale section always mention what clocks they've achieved if any, or that it has just run stock.

I tend to agree with WJA96, that this thread is somehow an attempt to drive down used Wolfdale prices, on this forum at least.

Althulas · 2 Mar 2008 at 12:44

How much could I expect to sell my E8500 for?

WJA96 · 2 Mar 2008 at 12:57

Althulas said:
How much could I expect to sell my E8500 for?

With the current lack of supply, pretty much what you paid for it.

cavemanoc · 2 Mar 2008 at 13:43

hernaldo said:
You pump that much through an AMD barton and it prolly won't boot again.

Its a totally different comparison, these intel chips have been show to basically run at infinite clock speeds as long as plenty of volts and enough cooling is present.

Bartons were not like that, you could freeze them back to the ice age and they'd still hit a wall not that higher than high end water etc.

I beg to differ

With the exception of Cathar's simply astonishing score (and tbh his water cooling skills are a tad above the average :eek:

) freezing them back to the stone age did help, and they were capable of dealing with 2v (but I wouldn't run it there for too long

)

cavemanoc · 2 Mar 2008 at 13:46

WJA96 said:
With the current lack of supply, pretty much what you paid for it.

10+ in stock at the moment - have they only just got in?

Althulas · 2 Mar 2008 at 15:30

Well I paid a £180 for mine so will try it on the bay inc the postage for a buy now offer.

hernaldo · 2 Mar 2008 at 15:44

Tooks said:
As with all things purchasing related, it should be buyer beware.

I've never sold a pup of a chip, I'm nice like that (If it breaks, it goes in the bin!), and nor have I ever purchased one. The Q6600 I'm running in this PC is third hand, from this forum, and it works like a charm. You just need to ask a few questions when buying and use the trust system.

It's pure speculation on your part that CPU's sold without claims of clocks and/or sold at an 'overclocking premium' are going to stand a fair chance of being 'crappy'. Most people on the For Sale section always mention what clocks they've achieved if any, or that it has just run stock.

I tend to agree with WJA96, that this thread is somehow an attempt to drive down used Wolfdale prices, on this forum at least.

I'm not familiar with the members market here, as don't have enough posts and haven't been here long enough. I'm sure due to those restrictions and the trust system its a good way of dealing with straight up people. On ebay its a totally different thing though. Was more talking in general.

If you're buying 2nd hand then basically just make sure you get some exact figures of what the chip is capable of. If the person says "its never been overclocked" and plays dumb, then best avoid imo.

helmutcheese · 2 Mar 2008 at 16:35

@ hernaldo, you obv dont know your CPU's, my AMD 2600m was rated for Max 2.0v and ,Max 100C, obv this drops as you overclock. (printed on the Core)

The fact remains, overvolting/clocking shortens any parts life inc any CPU, but there is no proof the E8X00's die any sooner due to this apart from BS rumours as none are old enough yet.

The fact remains if you buy a CPU or GPU (2 main items) the chances it was overclocked are high, so simply do not buy 2nd hand if you are worried.

Tooks · 2 Mar 2008 at 16:44

helmutcheese said:
@ hernaldo, you obv dont know your CPU's, my AMD 2600m was rated for Max 2.0v and ,Max 100C, obv this drops as you overclock. (printed on the Core)

The fact remains, overvolting/clocking shortens any parts life inc any CPU, but there is no proof the E8X00's die any sooner due to this apart from BS rumours as none are old enough yet.

The fact remains if you buy a CPU or GPU (2 main items) the chances it was overclocked are high, so si9mply do not n=buy 2nd hand if you are worried.

Yep, I think you've got that about right really. It's all about our attitudes to risk isn't it?

If you ask the right questions, and buy from somebody you trust, or they can demonstrate a good track record/offer some kind of warranty, then why not buy a Wolfdale or any other used CPU/GPU?

I tend to think that overall, buying a used CPU is far less risky than buying a used car for example!

But, if you don't think it's worth the risk, then don't buy - simple!

Justintime · 2 Mar 2008 at 16:50

helmutcheese said:
@ hernaldo, you obv dont know your CPU's, my AMD 2600m was rated for Max 2.0v and ,Max 100C, obv this drops as you overclock. (printed on the Core)

.

no socket A cpu was ever rated to take 2.0v for an extended period of time. Also 100C is the temperature that its rated for before thermal breakdown where damage is irreversable, not everyday running temperature and not for any extended period of time.

kitfit1 · 2 Mar 2008 at 17:18

The "Degredation" myth is just that, a myth. A look at my sig tells you what i am running and at what vcore. It has been at that clock since the day the E8xxx's were released. after hammering it for weeks on end, sometimes at 4.8ghz to 5ghz i have seen no "degredation" whatsoever. In fact it now needs LESS vcore at 4.6ghz than it did when i got it.

Justintime · 2 Mar 2008 at 17:26

While i'm not sold on the idea that theres an issue, SNDS was not a myth as i've seen it with my own cpus and others, but not every single overclocked/overvolted Northwood suffered from it.

helmutcheese · 2 Mar 2008 at 18:14

Justintime said:
no socket A cpu was ever rated to take 2.0v for an extended period of time. Also 100C is the temperature that its rated for before thermal breakdown where damage is irreversable, not everyday running temperature and not for any extended period of time.

You sure about that, I have the CPU in its box here.

It is a MOBILE CPU, Socket A AMD Barton 2600M.

I do know what it says on the Core and on AMD's site when using the other Codes on the Core.

Thats why I stated MAX of 100C and MAX of 2.0v, Lappy are not as easy on a CPU as a desktop as they run hot.

I never nor have I seen any AMD info stating you should run it 24/7 at 2.0v and 100C.

You want to contest AMD's own Tech Info on that CPU ?.

straxusii · 2 Mar 2008 at 18:16

Dont got for a 2nd hand wolfdale at the moment, you have to ask yourselves why they are selling it. Most likely either degradation OR it wouldnt clock high enough.

kitfit1 · 2 Mar 2008 at 18:41

Justintime said:
While i'm not sold on the idea that theres an issue, SNDS was not a myth as i've seen it with my own cpus and others, but not every single overclocked/overvolted Northwood suffered from it.

I never said "SNDS was a myth". I said that E8xxx degredation was a myth. I have posted over at XS the reason i think that peeps are having trouble keeping thier clocks. Because to start with i had trouble keeping mine, until i found the reason why. It has nothing to do with Vcore, but has everything to do with "clock setting fine delay".

satman · 2 Mar 2008 at 18:44

Hafnium-based Intel® 45nm Process Technology

Two words: relentless innovation. Using dramatically new materials including hafnium-based circuitry, new Intel® 45nm Hi-k metal gate silicon technology helps to dramatically increase processor energy efficiency and performance for an unprecedented computing experience.

With this breakthrough transistor technology, Intel is manufacturing serious advantage into every hafnium-based Intel 45nm Hi-k chip

Point is .. this is New Tech and not yet earned its Badge of Honor ...