DELETED_74993
- Thread starter DELETED_74993
- Start date
Associate
- Joined
- 28 Nov 2008
- Posts
- 304
- Location
- Swindon
I don't have much faith in alternative medicine, that said if I was seriously ill and there wasn't anything conventional medicine could offer me I'd give it a go,as you wouldn't have anything to lose.
Soldato
- Joined
- 28 Nov 2008
- Posts
- 8,725
- Location
- UK
If "alternative medicines" worked, they'd be called "medicines".
Associate
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2008
- Posts
- 1,339
- Location
- UK
It's not something I have personally had to use. I have had a number of friends who have though, due to conventional medicine having limited success (for bad backs, sports injuries and the like). Mainly acupuncture and osteopathy.
don't really know if this counts as a CAM treatment, but i get a lot of joint pain and i use a TENS/Interferential to control it, i picked this type of pain control over the more normal "take a pill" because i didn't want to take a lots of pain killers for the rest of my life and the side effects they have
![[FnG]magnolia](/styles/overclockers/avatars/9.png){kind=avatar}
Caporegime
- Joined
- 29 Aug 2007
- Posts
- 28,846
- Location
- Auckland
Desperation and/or ignorance. This was the answer a consultant gave me a few years ago. I don't know anyone - and I mean anyone - from the probably hundreds of consultants, Heads of Service, and GM's in the health service who has anything positive to say about these type of treatments. Well, other than the fact that it can give the patient (false) hope.
Although this was in the UK, I don't imagine these treatments are given any more serious consideration as viable, here in NZ.
e : TENS isn't alternative. It's an established practice and widely used by a number of different Wards and specialities for patient care.
Not necessarily true: acupuncture works in some ways beyond the placebo and it's still cllassed as alternative. It also belongs to a different belief system which ought to tell you something: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...punctures-effect-isnt-just-psychological.html
Soldato
- Joined
- 24 Nov 2002
- Posts
- 16,376
- Location
- 38.744281°N 104.846806°W
Acupuncture and acupressure have a bit more sound basis though. I wouldn't laugh at someone that used either (in fact I have friends that do).
I understand and completely agree but there are still many others that do due to a number of conditions involved.
I have a lot of experience with things like Hypnotherapy, NLP etc.
These treatments are typically used where the physiological (i.e. "medical") problem is caused by someone's mental processes rather than physical pathology/a virus etc.
For example, stress is the physical manifestation of certain thoughts. People who experience stress do not get hit in the back or have additional acid pumped into their stomachs (i.e. no physiological cause) but they often suffer from back pain, stomach ulcers etc. That's why if you have "stress", your GP can't really help you very much.
At the same time, numerous studies (an example: http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=355706) indicate that stress can cause serious medical problems.
So if you are a doctor and someone comes to you with stress, you know, on the one hand, that you can't do anything for them other than treating the symptom (i.e. give them some form of drugs to lower their blood pressure, say), but you also know that their condition is likely to cause them various scientifically measurable physical ailments.
In this situation, one of the possible solutions is to solve the problem of "stress" at its root, i.e. teach the patient how to remain calm or manage their stressful working environment. Various CAMs are brilliant at this and many other things.
The same is true for depression, disassociative disorders, mental trauma and many other "mental health" problems which have a direct impact on the body. Your GP can give you some largely ineffective, often addictive drugs that don't solve the underlying problem. That's all official medicine can do for you in this case.
The problem with scientific research into CAMs is that the scientists who conduct the studies often don't know enough about the CAM to know what it is they are measuring. In addition, most CAMs don't lend themselves well to generalised studies - one osteopath may be extremely effective while another may be less skilled and therefore less effective or even harmful. If you take the two together and do a study, you come to the conclusion that "on average" osteopathy is "no better than placebo". (This, incidentally, is also true of doctors - has every doctor you've ever seen been able to correctly diagnose and then treat your problem to a successful outcome?) If you take your car to a mechanic and he can't help you fix the problem, you don't declare car mechanics to be unscientific, you keep looking for a mechanic who can fix the problem.
Remember, science isn't about what sounds "scientific" - it's about what works and what doesn't work. The only way to find that out reliably is to try it yourself.
These treatments are typically used where the physiological (i.e. "medical") problem is caused by someone's mental processes rather than physical pathology/a virus etc.
For example, stress is the physical manifestation of certain thoughts. People who experience stress do not get hit in the back or have additional acid pumped into their stomachs (i.e. no physiological cause) but they often suffer from back pain, stomach ulcers etc. That's why if you have "stress", your GP can't really help you very much.
At the same time, numerous studies (an example: http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=355706) indicate that stress can cause serious medical problems.
So if you are a doctor and someone comes to you with stress, you know, on the one hand, that you can't do anything for them other than treating the symptom (i.e. give them some form of drugs to lower their blood pressure, say), but you also know that their condition is likely to cause them various scientifically measurable physical ailments.
In this situation, one of the possible solutions is to solve the problem of "stress" at its root, i.e. teach the patient how to remain calm or manage their stressful working environment. Various CAMs are brilliant at this and many other things.
The same is true for depression, disassociative disorders, mental trauma and many other "mental health" problems which have a direct impact on the body. Your GP can give you some largely ineffective, often addictive drugs that don't solve the underlying problem. That's all official medicine can do for you in this case.
The problem with scientific research into CAMs is that the scientists who conduct the studies often don't know enough about the CAM to know what it is they are measuring. In addition, most CAMs don't lend themselves well to generalised studies - one osteopath may be extremely effective while another may be less skilled and therefore less effective or even harmful. If you take the two together and do a study, you come to the conclusion that "on average" osteopathy is "no better than placebo". (This, incidentally, is also true of doctors - has every doctor you've ever seen been able to correctly diagnose and then treat your problem to a successful outcome?) If you take your car to a mechanic and he can't help you fix the problem, you don't declare car mechanics to be unscientific, you keep looking for a mechanic who can fix the problem.
Remember, science isn't about what sounds "scientific" - it's about what works and what doesn't work. The only way to find that out reliably is to try it yourself.
Nothing wrong with trying some alternative medicines. Many people swear on those magnetic wrist bracelets to help with join pain - my dad swears on it, yet there is no evidence whatsoever that it statistically helps.
I tried echinacia (sp?) drops once to assist my cold and shortly after it went away. Coincidence? Possibly, who knows.
It it works for you, then go for it.
I tried echinacia (sp?) drops once to assist my cold and shortly after it went away. Coincidence? Possibly, who knows.
It it works for you, then go for it.
Soldato
- Joined
- 28 Nov 2008
- Posts
- 8,725
- Location
- UK
Soldato
- Joined
- 28 Nov 2008
- Posts
- 8,725
- Location
- UK
Not on paper, no, but the fact that most people are idiots and get conned into buying ridiculous remedies and therapies (magnetic wrist band, case and point) is wrong. What is even more wrong is when one might start to rely on 'alternative therapies' or the advise from 'nutritionists' to cure real diseases or problems, putting themselves at risks.
You say "Possibly", but it should be "Probably" (and in fact, "almost certainly").
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
Tens machines are clinically proven, and I use one for chronic knee joint pain, both knee's, but I'm not convinced it helps with pain directly.
The worst thing about chronic pain, isn't the actual pain, which isn't nice, I get more acute pain with certain movements and too much moving but I get a general dull ache like 90% of the time. Its just, tiring, always feeling pain, every part of your life involving pain, the decision to go buy food even from a close by shop dependant on your pain, chronic pain is just a constant nag you can't get away from. Now tens machines, I don't know if theres anything that stops the pain or lessens it, some suggests it does and that certain modes can release endorphins, maybe, maybe not. I think the main thing is simply giving your nerves a DIFFERENT message rather than the same message.
That it clinically and scientifcally can do, theres no question that put on the pads, turn it up, you won't feel it. I'd say its certainly not alternative, but its no opiod replacement either
A lot of "alternative therapys" are complete tosh, a lot are maybe not proven, as most medical idea's can seem out there at first. A lot of things like herbs for this that or the other condition, some work as a placebo, some just work, some are nonsense. A huge number of medicines we take were based off real herbs found here there and everywhere, so its nonsense to right all treatments as a joke, as lots of old remedies end up the basis for real clinically proven synthetically produced variants of the same things.
The worst thing about alternative medicines, is the internet, for pretty much ANYTHING, anything you can buy at all, for medicine, or for your computer, or for anything you can think of there is SO much disinformation, deluded individuals praising the effectiveness of some new idea that its literally impossible to know whats crackpot and whats more realistic these days, thats why a lot more people get caught in the borderline believable things.
THe worst thing is, theres very little to disgtinguish between a product that works and has genuine reviews, a product that works and has people who sell competiting products who post reviews saying its rubbish, but product X really works, those who have products that do nothing and are filled with fake reviews, and those products that don't work but deluded people think works and tell everyone how good it is.
With the internet these days theres TOO much information and so much from completely unverifiable sources, that the crackpot alternative stuff, and the semi effective things that actually work are indistinguishable.
I can see why a lot of people try homeopathic remedies, as people like the idea of natural stuff, people pump out websites crying out about how every single different chemical is terrible for you and anything natural is somehow healthy, kind of like the Dihydrogen monoxide hoax stuff, but with just about any chemical added to any food, medicine, clothes dyes, theres websites out there claiming they cause anything from a cold to every form of cancer ever found.
When people look up the problems they have, they tend to scare themselves with the real treatments more than find answers they need, hence the huge push towards alternative medicine, and the simply huge industry its become.
The worst thing about chronic pain, isn't the actual pain, which isn't nice, I get more acute pain with certain movements and too much moving but I get a general dull ache like 90% of the time. Its just, tiring, always feeling pain, every part of your life involving pain, the decision to go buy food even from a close by shop dependant on your pain, chronic pain is just a constant nag you can't get away from. Now tens machines, I don't know if theres anything that stops the pain or lessens it, some suggests it does and that certain modes can release endorphins, maybe, maybe not. I think the main thing is simply giving your nerves a DIFFERENT message rather than the same message.
That it clinically and scientifcally can do, theres no question that put on the pads, turn it up, you won't feel it. I'd say its certainly not alternative, but its no opiod replacement either
A lot of "alternative therapys" are complete tosh, a lot are maybe not proven, as most medical idea's can seem out there at first. A lot of things like herbs for this that or the other condition, some work as a placebo, some just work, some are nonsense. A huge number of medicines we take were based off real herbs found here there and everywhere, so its nonsense to right all treatments as a joke, as lots of old remedies end up the basis for real clinically proven synthetically produced variants of the same things.
The worst thing about alternative medicines, is the internet, for pretty much ANYTHING, anything you can buy at all, for medicine, or for your computer, or for anything you can think of there is SO much disinformation, deluded individuals praising the effectiveness of some new idea that its literally impossible to know whats crackpot and whats more realistic these days, thats why a lot more people get caught in the borderline believable things.
THe worst thing is, theres very little to disgtinguish between a product that works and has genuine reviews, a product that works and has people who sell competiting products who post reviews saying its rubbish, but product X really works, those who have products that do nothing and are filled with fake reviews, and those products that don't work but deluded people think works and tell everyone how good it is.
With the internet these days theres TOO much information and so much from completely unverifiable sources, that the crackpot alternative stuff, and the semi effective things that actually work are indistinguishable.
I can see why a lot of people try homeopathic remedies, as people like the idea of natural stuff, people pump out websites crying out about how every single different chemical is terrible for you and anything natural is somehow healthy, kind of like the Dihydrogen monoxide hoax stuff, but with just about any chemical added to any food, medicine, clothes dyes, theres websites out there claiming they cause anything from a cold to every form of cancer ever found.
When people look up the problems they have, they tend to scare themselves with the real treatments more than find answers they need, hence the huge push towards alternative medicine, and the simply huge industry its become.