Poll: DELETED_74993

[Cosimo]

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[meghatronic]

Buying F22's would have been less than half the R&D costs of the Typhoon program and that excludes actually buying the Typhoons themselves

Not even Israel could get F22s.

Sorry, but Brimstone has been in use in Afghanistan for about 2 years, just normally against blokes on donkeys etc instead of Tanks.

Note, "combat testing".

They've been used in Afghanistan as 'bunker'/cave/wall busters. But slightly different to use against armour.

 

[ubersonic]

Not even Israel could get F22s.

A good point, though the US have said they would be interested in supplying F-22's to Australia, how about this:

Buying Rafale's or SU-35BM's would have been less than a third of the the R&D costs of the Typhoon program and that excludes actually buying the Typhoons themselves.

 

[Stelly]

Not even Israel could get F22s.


Note, "combat testing".

They've been used in Afghanistan as 'bunker'/cave/wall busters. But slightly different to use against armour.

They were also used to deliver liquid air bombs against the teletubbies as well...

Stelly

 

[Danthus]

What don't you understand about 'There's no money left'.

So it would seem.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...AF-pilots-for-Libya-as-defence-cuts-bite.html

Since the conflict began, a squadron of 18 RAF Typhoon pilots has enforced the Libya no-fly zone from an air base in southern Italy. However, a shortage of qualified fighter pilots means the RAF may not have enough to replace all of them when the squadron has to rotate in a few weeks.

The situation is so serious that the RAF has halted the teaching of trainee Typhoon pilots so instructors can be drafted on to the front line, according to air force sources. The handful of pilots used for air shows will also be withdrawn from displays this summer.

The shortage has arisen because cuts to the defence budget over the past decade have limited the number of pilots who have been trained to fly the new Typhoon.

There are also fewer newly qualified pilots coming through after the RAF was forced to cut a quarter of its trainee places due to cuts announced in last year’s Strategic Defence and Security Review.

The Government’s decision to decommission HMS Ark Royal, Harrier jump jets and the Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft — all of which could have played a role in the Libya conflict — has exacerbated the problem. Serving RAF pilots contacted The Daily Telegraph to warn of the risks to the Libya operation. “We have a declining pool of pilots,” one said. “There’s less people to do twice as much work. If we are not training any more we are going to run out of personnel very soon.”

 

[Zip]

A good point, though the US have said they would be interested in supplying F-22's to Australia, how about this:

I knew i remember hearing that a lot!

I just couldnt find out info on it through wikipedia
Whats happening with it? We are getting F35s but i remember some big fuss about what would be better for Australias needs F35s or F22s.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

The US would sell F-22s ?

 

[Zip]

The US would sell F-22s ?

I remember hearing something about America saying they would sell to Australia if they asked.

Ill have a look. I dont think anything came of it in the end due to good ol fashioned politics

Edit: Turns out America said they wouldnt sell it after all

 

[daver]

A good point, though the US have said they would be interested in supplying F-22's to Australia, how about this:

Buying Rafale's or SU-35BM's would have been less than a third of the the R&D costs of the Typhoon program and that excludes actually buying the Typhoons themselves.

You are not comparing apples with apples. Do you think the French would absorb the R&D costs of developing Rafale and not pass them on to any export customers? The price anyone would pay for them would be adjusted to reflect that and/or technology transfer agreements/work transfer agreements.

BTW the USA have closed down the F-22 production line as the planes are too expensive to continue procuring.

 

[Cosimo]

The US would sell F-22s ?

We are talking of a few years ago.

Both Australia and Japan wanted to buy them but the export ban remains in place and now funding for their production has been stopped.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/f22-raptors-to-japan-01909/

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?129354-Australia-launches-bid-for-F-22-fighter

 

[ubersonic]

I remember hearing something about America saying they would sell to Australia if they asked.

Yeah, the Defence secretary said he had no objection to Australia buying the F-22 and that congress would be willing to change the law if a deal could be made however the Australian government decided it would prefer the F-35 over the F-22

You are not comparing apples with apples. Do you think the French would absorb the R&D costs of developing Rafale and not pass them on to any export customers? The price anyone would pay for them would be adjusted to reflect that and/or technology transfer agreements/work transfer agreements.

France export the Rafale (they were trying to get Gaddafi to buy some last year) and the top of the line one costs the same amount as a Typhoon, the SU-35BM costs a bit less.

 

[do_ron_ron]

I see the media are protraying a huge rebel advance taking town after town etc etc, giving the impression of rebels defeating gaddafi's forces. Last night one of the reporters said that although the advance had been swift it was only because the Govt. forces had abandoned the towns. When they came up against forces outside Sirte they got on their trucks and jeeps and withdrew 25km.

As far as I can see there is stalemate. The rebels cannot advance without NATO airforces destroying Govt. forces and the Govt. cannot advance without the NATO planes bombing them.

It has gone passed the time when NATO forces can hide behind the fig leaf of 'protecting civilians', how long are they prepared to continue the bombing?

The longer it takes the more opposition in member countries and especially muslim countries.

Unless something dramatic happens, Cameron has got the UK in a no-win situation.

 

[Danthus]

We don't have the resources to be in Libya and correct me if I am wrong but all the bombing hasn't stopped civilians being killed.

 

[mattc_uk]

Like all of the middle East conflicts, the information on civilians getting killed is sketchy. Always seeing dodgy acting at hospitals with loads of dictators behind them looking shadily at the camera's. Not to mention the daily bombardment of anti-west propaganda on Libyan TV showing the UK/US torture video's.

Once again there's a propaganda war going on as well. Gadaffi is history without support from his people so he has to make the West look like murderers in his country rather than him.

Matt

 

[daver]

France export the Rafale (they were trying to get Gaddafi to buy some last year) and the top of the line one costs the same amount as a Typhoon, the SU-35BM costs a bit less.

We don't know how much an export Rafale would ultimately cost, nor what technology transfer or workshare agreements it would involve because they have not received one single export order for them as of yet.

 

[ubersonic]

I see the media are protraying a huge rebel advance taking town after town etc etc, giving the impression of rebels defeating gaddafi's forces. Last night one of the reporters said that although the advance had been swift it was only because the Govt. forces had abandoned the towns. When they came up against forces outside Sirte they got on their trucks and jeeps and withdrew 25km.

As far as I can see there is stalemate. The rebels cannot advance without NATO airforces destroying Govt. forces and the Govt. cannot advance without the NATO planes bombing them.

It has gone passed the time when NATO forces can hide behind the fig leaf of 'protecting civilians', how long are they prepared to continue the bombing?

The longer it takes the more opposition in member countries and especially muslim countries.

Unless something dramatic happens, Cameron has got the UK in a no-win situation.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the rebels arrive at a city loyal to Gaddafi (even though the media say they don't exist) and start racking up the civilian casualties.

 

[gettothechopper]

It will be interesting to see what happens when the rebels arrive at a city loyal to Gaddafi (even though the media say they don't exist) and start racking up the civilian casualties.

the problem is that we dont know if the cities are actually pro gaddafi or not

until the rebels get to one and the pro-gadaffi force retreat we wont know if the civilians in that city support the revolution or not

 

[do_ron_ron]

the problem is that we dont know if the cities are actually pro gaddafi or not

until the rebels get to one and the pro-gadaffi force retreat we wont know if the civilians in that city support the revolution or not

When one side gets to the city they are pro-that side and if they get kicked out they are pro-other side or they lie low and try not to get involved so nobody can point the finger later.

 

[do_ron_ron]

It will be interesting to see what happens when the rebels arrive at a city loyal to Gaddafi (even though the media say they don't exist) and start racking up the civilian casualties.

They will all have been killed by the retreating Gaddafi forces and it will only be years later, when it will not longer matter that the truth will come out.
Remember it is about regime change.

All armies kill civilians

 

[mmj_uk]

We don't have the resources to be in Libya and correct me if I am wrong but all the bombing hasn't stopped civilians being killed.

That's because it's about overthrowing Gaddafi, protecting civilians was simply a pretext for the gullible masses so they feel good about waging yet another war.