Diagnostics advice please.

[Plec]

edit: The potentially suspect ram causes my amd machine to shut down under prime 95 blend, stock settings except for ram running slower than stock. So that's not looking good either.
Close of business today, no response.

Amd machine now refuses to post with the ocz ram, and then refused to post with the 1gb stick. Scared the hell out of me, gone back to using the 1gb stick it came with after a cmos reset and trying to post with no ram. I'm not putting the ocz ram near another computer, it just isn't worth it.

There is a plus side to this – but, admittedly, you have to be a pretty optimistic, ‘happy clappy’ type of person to see it as one.

If the OZC RAM was in the motherboard when it blew and has since shown it has little or no integrity then suddenly the q9550 is looking very guilty.

Again, it’s not conclusive but it’s another step forward – and maybe enough evidence for you to justify rma'ing it to your favoured choice - be it INTEL or the e-tailer.

 

[JonJ678]

I don't quite follow you here. When disaster struck the ram, processor, motherboard, psu and mb speaker were connected. I'm very grateful my graphics card wasn't. Now that the ram is being flakey in a different system, why would that count as further evidence against the processor?

I'd have thought the motherboard blowing could hurt the ram without involving the cpu at all, so I'm interested as to your reasoning here.


8 pin cable burning out
same behvaiour with cpu present as absent
working processor getting more life out of the board
and now perhaps the faulty ram

not sure I have any more evidence against it yet, might post it to a friend for testing

edit: actually it's possible that I was sent a working motherboard that was then savaged by the processor, so if retailer had tested it perhaps I have an answer to whether a faulty processor can break a motherboard. This would be interesting, and probably worth knowing.

 

[Plec]

Disclaimer: I typed the below in between my kids taking it in turns to torture me through sleep deprivation, by waking up between the hours 2am and 4 am. Most of the time I was battling for keyboard space along with my youngest feet - so even if it only makes partial sense run with it... (Written in the early hours – posted when i had chance this morning – I’m now off to mainline some more caffeine.)

edit: The potentially suspect ram causes my amd machine to shut down under prime 95 blend, stock settings except for ram running slower than stock. So that's not looking good either.

I may have mistakenly taken your above EDIT to signify that you think the MB did corrupt the memory. When, in fact, you’re just stating the memory is, generally, flaky, flaky – I think? – I don’t know...

• Now that the ram is being flakey in a different system, why would that count as further evidence against the processor?

• I'd have thought the motherboard blowing could hurt the ram without involving the cpu at all

It doesn’t (when not considering other factors), and it can, respectively:

However, I was replying with the knowledge that ‘your gut’ has been telling you that the processor was kaput – which, from experience, usually counts for a lot. However; take your ‘tummy rumblings’ out of the equation then, yes; there is no further evidence...

The usual suspects for killing a processor is a PSU frying it or a motherboard deciding to lose its ability to manage voltages – the latter being your primary suspect.

The only visual evidence you had, that anything was damaged, was some scorch marks near the DIMM slot (can’t remember exactly) – but the memory, on first inspection in another rig, appeared to be unaffected – but now appears to be flaky/corrupt(?).

Basically, when the motherboard blew it may not have been discriminate – and there doesn’t have to be any tell tale signs that the CPU has been affected. As you, yourself, have suspected the CPU throughout the thread and you now have failing memory due to what could have been too many voltages – it seemed to add a little more credence, to your gut’s instinct, that the CPU is dead (but not a MB killer)

Christ, I was the one championing the CPU and somehow I’ve ended up botching together (badly) a reply trying to justify its demise. (My 2 year old has just tried to give me a kiss and succeeded in giving me a 'Glasgow' version instead right on my nose - OUCH!!!)

Aaaaaaanyway, to summarise before i lose consciousness, – if your gut is still telling you that the CPU is fried, and the memory has been proven to be damaged – then that was ‘the step closer’ I was referring to. It was a reply geared more towards your suspicions than based on actual fact...

If, however, your gut has had a change of heart (now there's an odd arrangement of words) – then, no, you don’t have any further evidence.

Confused still? - I am - but then im sleep deprived and now have concussion...

Whichever side you stomach is batting for – good luck with it – you deserve a break! (and I need sleep plus an MRI… :/ )

 

[JonJ678]

Epic post, thank you.

Flaky seems a fair description. It passes memtest but the system crashes and burns during prime blend, whereas it does just fine with the 1gb stick. I think if the ram was briefly hit by a large voltage it's reasonable for it to continue to function, just not very reliably. Prior to this it was just fine, running quite happily at 1100 or so undervolted. So yep, I think the motherboard hurt it.

Motherboard giving up on voltage regulation does sound about right now I think about it. It must have drawn a hell of a lot of current to burn out the 8 pin cable though, the psu is single rail so it's the cable itself which died. Credit to the psu, if it can output enough power to burn through its own cables Im quite impressed. It might be much less exciting and just an internal fuse of course, hard to check.

I'm glad you believe the cpu is not a motherboard killer. I'm worried enough that it might be that I won't put it in a friends computer, I hope when it eventually gets rma'd it doesn't kill any test equipment.

I'm not sure I'm after a break, I'd like the retailer to pull their finger out though. They've had a formal complaint for three working days now and a post in their support forums since the 24th. Taking the **** really. I shall have to find a phone that isn't on pay as you go and call them.

Cheers again man

Now four working days.

Phoned today (saturday). A suitable manager isn't in, I've left my number and with some luck they'll call on monday.

 

[JonJ678]

Yeah, its a bump. Significant update though, and beats making a new thread.

A week ago I was asked to send the board and processor back for rma. I replied to noreply@etailer, and then today started writing an angry email because id been ignored. Thankfully I caught my mistake and sent a slightly more sheepish one along with the one Id failed to send last week.

Ram has not been rma'd, processor and board were shipped back yesterday and probably got there today. Postage is hopefully being refunded, we'll see how that goes.

I still want to change to gigabyte, as id rather rma to manufacturer and I believe theyre in milton keynes. On the other hand, I really liked that board before it killed everything, and quite want the system I was so fond of two months ago back. So probably happy with either. If I'm sent another dead motherboard I'm going to go ******* mental.

Happy days

 

[Plec]

Ram has not been rma'd, processor and board were shipped back yesterday and probably got there today.

It will be interesting to see what their findings are - I suspect you’re hoping for both components to fail so you’re not left with a part you don’t fully trust. It would be satisfying to have 2 new core components at your disposal so that you could have some renewed confidence in your system again – ignoring your memory’s frailties of course. :/

Postage is hopefully being refunded, we'll see how that goes.

I can’t see that being an issue when taking into account your past correspondence regarding the CPU – and, if the MB is proven to be a DOA, well, they’ll have nowhere to hide with that one, other than bluster.

I still want to change to gigabyte, as id rather rma to manufacturer and I believe theyre in milton keynes.

They are based in Milton Keynes and the rma processs, I think, costs ~£10 and the turn around is relatively quick – especially when compared to that of Asus.

I have a Gigabyte in my present system but have found I miss the Asus environment (old habits) – but other than that there is very little to complain about and, on the whole, they’re exceptional value for money.

If I'm sent another dead motherboard I'm going to go ******* mental

Understandable, and it never ceases to amaze me how computers have the ability to bring grown men to the brink of their rational limits (myself included). What they give with one hand they, periodically, slap you silly with the other. (Then there is memory of course which slaps you with one hand while restraining you with the other so it can slap you some more.)

Good luck!

 

[Plec]

Any luck on the testing front? Will you be taking the plunge into i7 territory?

From your other post (in the other thread) it would be an expensive foray (new memory and pump?) - but with your computer usage at least you could justify the expense.

I may be out of BB range for 2 weeks so best of luck with the above.

 

[JonJ678]

Hey man. No news back from them yet, sadly but unsurprisingly. I shall be patient for a little while further, then try phoning again. Last time I was told the manager was out, and he'd call me back... I'm still waiting on that.

I hope to be moving to i7, but we shall see. Strange that my rma doesn't have any sort of priority associated with it after this long. I think the minimum list of parts Id need would be memory, backplate, mounting plate. The worry isn't the pump (I'd hope the 18W ddc can cope) but the radiators, as apparently i7 runs very hot. It's a feser 240 and two feser 120s stacked, so pushing my luck a bit. Even on the stock cooler it would do better with cad than the current box, and that's getting a bit pressing now.

Sad to hear you're going to be deprived of internet access, I hope this means you're going somewhere exciting rather than impending electrical failure. I'll let you know how this turns out, enjoy your trip

 

[JonJ678]

Well, an update at last. It looks like they're going to make it to the 2 month anniversary sadly, but I have a gigabyte UD5 and an i7 D0 stepping heading my way. So that's good. I need to find the bracket for my waterblock and some ddr3 ram. Unfortunately the corsair I've set my heart on is about £100 more than I can spare at present, trying to work this one out. I might try selling absolutely everything I have remaining that isn't actually used in my computer. Needs some thought.

On a related note, the psu that experienced this hit in the first place gave up the ghost today. Computer does nothing whatsoever with this one connected, but works fine with a different one so that's definite. That puts it at motherboard, processor and psu which died when the board went. Fairly certain the ram has had it but not found a way of testing it. Still, a definite step forwards.

 

[JonJ678]

Happy owner of a gigabyte UD5 and i7, D0 stepping. Process took just over two months. Google finds nothing of use from the batch number, so we'll see how it goes.

Just need to get some ddr3 and I'll have an actual working computer again. Happy days

 

[Plec]

That puts it at motherboard, processor and psu which died when the board went. Fairly certain the ram has had it but not found a way of testing it. Still, a definite step forwards.

Well, that explains why the troubleshooting process was so confusing – multiple organ failure is hard to diagnose in most things. :/

At least your decision to rma both the CPU and MB was completely vindicated - a small personal victory but always a bonus when you’ve been butting heads with a numnut for nigh on 2 months. (Again, we’re not talking about OcUK)

Happy owner of a gigabyte UD5 and i7, D0 stepping. Process took just over two months. Google finds nothing of use from the batch number, so we'll see how it goes.

Just need to get some ddr3 and I'll have an actual working computer again. Happy days

A tidy upgrade from your frazzled spec – and a great clocking MB with the UD5 - underwater you should, hopefully, hit 4GHz easily.

Have you got the ddr3 yet and are your rads up to the task of cooling the i7?

Glad to hear that things seem to have finally come to conclusion but I suspect it’s without its financial costs. Hopefully, your cooling will be adequate for the interim…

 

[JonJ678]

Glad to see you've found broadband again, enjoy your trip?

It's nice to be proved right, and definitely nice to have a swifter computer. All worked out well. I found myself part time employment and am using the money to buy pieces of computer. Happy days.

6gb of corsair sitting in a board being inefficiently and noisily cooled by the stock hsf after I foolishly overtorqued an ek block. Still, it's running at last and I've got a couple of weeks to learn the bios before putting the board under water. plus a consequence of the breakage is that I can justify importing this:

Which is just beautiful. I'm a happy man

edit: shame on me if I can't take it to 4ghz, after some reading around I'm pretty sure a 240 and two 120 radiators are going to cope just fine. If the £50 corsair effort can do it I'm sure my loop can. Worst case is I'll need a second pump to overcome the ludicrously restrictive loop, and end up moving one of the 120's to a more sensible place. I'm glad I'm using an 8800gt though.

 

[Plec]

Glad to see you've found broadband again, enjoy your trip?

Yeah I did thanks – very relaxing and the lack if BB meant that I was able completely relax without any distractions.

I found myself part time employment and am using the money to buy pieces of computer. Happy days.

Glad to hear you found some part time employment – hopefully the rest of the summer wont seem quite so financially daunting until uni kicks in again. Beer, women and a penchant for expensive computer parts are financially very absorbing for a student. Halcyon days...

plus a consequence of the breakage is that I can justify importing this:

Which is just beautiful. I'm a happy man

Only an engineer could use that adjective to describe what is essentially a lump of cast copper (Engineering blasphemy.) You have a passion and an attention to detail that will ultimately stand you in great stead once you’ve graduated. I envy your career options…

edit: shame on me if I can't take it to 4ghz, after some reading around I'm pretty sure a 240 and two 120 radiators are going to cope just fine. If the £50 corsair effort can do it I'm sure my loop can.

With my limited water knowledge I would agree with that – the above seems very capable when compared with the H50.

The Corsair H50 seems interesting – I’ve never ventured into water but the simplicity of the unit is very appealing and on paper and forum banter it’s getting freakishly good results.

I’m awaiting Yewen’s review on the unit before i decide – my major concerns being the intake of air into the case and the noise levels. I need to be sure the combination of pump and fan isn’t going to be louder than a decent cooler and that it’s not going to compromise my airflow through the case. Issues that will hopefully be clarified in the review and continuing users comments.

As a water cooling purist you’re probably reading the above in disgust – but if the results live up to the hype it’s seems a great middle ground for the price.

Time and reviews will tell I guess…

Have fun with your new build and i hope the aesthetically appealing lump of copper gives up the results that you hope.

 

[JonJ678]

Thanks for the kind words.

I'm still withholding judgement on the corsair. It has a couple of issues that I haven't seen answered. No means to replace the liquid which evaporates out through the tubes is one, and how what is essentially a 120 radiator with a pump is great but a normal 240 loop is 'adequate' for the second. Surface area is the king here, and the corsair has half the recommended. So I will wait and see.

Cheers, I'm looking forward to getting back to water. Going to order the remaining pieces today I think. The intel stock fan is loud, and I've caught a cable in it once already leading to the computer shutting down. No harm done, but water feels safer. Mainly moved to it to for myself to learn something about thermofluids

I think I'll post a build log of it, not sure it'll attract any interest since I probably don't have any questions to ask, but I'll enjoy writing it.

Shame the die cast top is going to take another couple of weeks to get to me, I think I'm going to order the chipset blocks today.

How did the 12gb i7 monster you were building for your friend work out? If I missed the build log I'd love a link to it

 

[Plec]

How did the 12gb i7 monster you were building for your friend work out? If I missed the build log I'd love a link to it

I’m afraid there was nothing to miss. It’s on hold for 4 months as my friend has a very interesting job, if not a little disturbing at times, and was required to move area, at very short notice, as his skills are temporarily needed elsewhere. (This probably sounds more dramatic than it actually is.)

However, he did buy the HP LP2475w monitor which really is a thing of beauty – when compared to a lump of die cast copper - I have 2 x 2209WAs, and I’m still a bit envious. If he had had the room he would have bought another one straightaway - he may yet as he’s toying with the idea of rejigging his study to accommodate a larger desk. This isn’t out of need but he likes the look of my setup even though my second DELL is in portrait 99.9% of the time.

The one upside to the enforced delay is that I suspect the new, revised spec will be: bigger, faster and better – but not necessarily balanced for its proposed usage :/. Plus, I now have a far greater knowledge of known reliable and compatible components for an i7 build.

Originally, I had tried to talk him out of getting 12gig of memory but since I did the initial spec post – it’s become more and more acceptable – more by trend than need (Yourself being one of the very rare exceptions.) and so I’ve relented. Also, I originally vetoed the SSD as too much of a luxury (he wanted 256Gb) and this is very much on the list now (128gig) as it seems to be becoming a staple of the modern system. Plus, it’s a very entertaining component and, even though it’s a luxury, he will actually be able to enjoy the performance gains unlike the 12gig of memory (for his usage).

I think I'll post a build log of it, not sure it'll attract any interest since I probably don't have any questions to ask, but I'll enjoy writing it.

Shame the die cast top is going to take another couple of weeks to get to me, I think I'm going to order the chipset blocks today.

A build log with your spec and modded cooling and added tinkering would be an interesting read, especially if you get that hybrid/reservoir creation off the blue print.

Has the lump of copper arrived?

I've just been informed by intel that if I use any cooler that is not the stock one, and any tim which is not a specific intel branded one bought from america, my warranty will be void. Boo

@~%£ing bloodies!

Sorry, had I known you were having to deal with INTEL directly, rather than the company you bought it through, I would have warned you about this. It’s something I don’t agree with as a decent third party cooler fitted with quality gunk should in no way void the warranty - especially when compared to their crappy retail pushpin cooler with pre-over applied paste. With that in mind i would have suggested that you neglect to inform them of the fact - not particularly honest but nor is their warranty in this situation. It may be worth a second phone call - I’ve read other posts where ppl have argued the toss (I would cite my above grievance) and INTEL have relented – this, I suspect, is very dependent on the discretion of the advisor you are talking to at the time but it may be worth a try.

EDIT: Excuse any typos or poor sentence structure – the above was rattled off very quickly before bed. I will edit tomorrow if required.

 

[JonJ678]

I'm pleased that it's delayed rather than cancelled, looking forward to the build. SSDs really are amazing, my one is in the step mothers new computer at present because I failed to get XP onto their hard drive quickly enough. She's currently the happy owner of a ridiculously overspecced office pc (antec P180, e8400, 30gb vertex), and I think will be sad when the ssd is gone.

I dont think I count as needing 12gb of ram as such either, I'll find uses for it certainly but I'm currently on 6gb with no real issues. I think its the empty slots which get to me, a sense that it's still not finished. I have a suspicion that at no point in the last 18 months have I had a computer which is not partially disassembled, really pushing to have this done before uni starts up again. Looks possible.

I fear the reservoir idea is actually a lot more boring than it sounds. Screwing a funnel into a fillport would achieve basically the same thing. However I don't trust the xspc reservoir, and am unlikely to use it in the final spec. There's a very good thread on here about water pressure, but the conclusion from it was pretty much that standard practice is so for good reason. The debate is whether a second ddc would improve a very restrictive loop. I'm going to solve this experimentally since I can't work it out. Loop temps are either flow rate or radiator limited. So I can undervolt the pump and the fans independently and determine from this whether another pump is worth it. Hard to say at present.

Not sure I'm going to end up doing anything particularly strange this time around. I'm putting daft numbers of things onto a single loop, and seriously considering watercooling part of the psu, but thats about it. I've made a very crude start on a build log, but its nothing remotely exciting yet. Still in the planning what tests to do phase. My ek block is going to be lapped, and I'm going to try liquid metal tim for alloying fun.

Actually I didn't rma to intel (thankfully it turns out), I had a long chat with one of their support people when considering using 'liquid metal'. Its a gallium alloy which bonds rather well to heatsinks and processors, offers significant temp decrease over as5. It's very electrically conductive, very fluid, and attacks most things. Eats aluminium at a scary rate. Also tends to cold weld the processor to the heatsink. I was trying to find out if this would void my warranty (a tim which has alloyed into the ihs ), and subsequently discovered that absolutely anything voids the warranty so I may as well lap it.

With regards the beautiful copper, I'm struggling to import it. No sign of it yet, and no eta. So hopefully a cheerful Polish chap is going to machine one for me and ship it. Roughly the same cost as a genuine ek one, but equally the same cost as the copper were I to attempt it. If it's good, which I strongly suspect it will be, I may be sending him models of chipset blocks to remake in copper form. Anyhow, the cpu is likely to be lapped, with gallium on it, then a milled and lapped ek supreme with a copper top. So the processor is damned well going to be cold

Off to write up a list of tests to run and order chipset blocks. Catch you later man