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DirectX 12 Requires Different Optimization on Nvidia and AMD Cards, Lots of Details Shared

thebennyboy said:
Out of interest, why? A fragmented market can't be a good thing imo. I can see what you're saying though and that is a real possibility.
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It's just the way its heading, there's sony and ms, you have exclusives for each then the dross inbetween. AMD and Nvidia, you've got AMD games and Nvidia games, now they will have to be optimised differently for dx12 and the future, so I think you'll have many more sponsored games from each camp. The divide will be created.

I think its a good thing because If I want to play an optimised DX12 AMD game on my nvidia cards, its not going to run anywhere near as good as the AMD sponsored game, so at least I know what I can and cant buy and there's no guesswork needed. Pick up a green game and go.
 
Never saw a reason for lower-level access for anyone outside of the very few engine developers - games dev's can mess up badly enough with all the restrictive options previously available, giving them more power seems a terrible idea.
 
Developers can’t mix and match DirectX 11 and DirectX 12. Either they commit to DirectX 12 entirely, or they shouldn’t use it.
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That's the most important point if you ask me, which you didn't, but I'll pretend you did.

So far we haven't had a true DX12 release, Or have we?
 
LambChop said:
I think its a good thing because If I want to play an optimised DX12 AMD game on my nvidia cards, its not going to run anywhere near as good as the AMD sponsored game, so at least I know what I can and cant buy and there's no guesswork needed. Pick up a green game and go.
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There's nothing good about that, PC games should run on all PC's that meet the basic requirements regardless of what brand card you have.
 
LambChop said:
I think its a good thing because If I want to play an optimised DX12 AMD game on my nvidia cards, its not going to run anywhere near as good as the AMD sponsored game, so at least I know what I can and cant buy and there's no guesswork needed. Pick up a green game and go.
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That's an awful way to look at it :confused:

What happens if a really good game (gameplay wise) runs terribly on your hardware? You either suck it up or buy the competition, that's going to be fantastic for the PC scene isn't it. I don't know about you but the vast majority can't afford to run 2 separate machines or switch hardware out whenever they please. Nor should they have to.
 
nashathedog said:
That's the most important point if you ask me, which you didn't, but I'll pretend you did.

So far we haven't had a true DX12 release, Or have we?
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Oxides nitrous engine (ashes) is built from scratch for low level api's, despite having dx11 path aswell.
 
nashathedog said:
There's nothing good about that, PC games should run on all PC's that meet the basic requirements regardless of what brand card you have.
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Ayahuasca said:
That's an awful way to look at it :confused:

What happens if a really good game (gameplay wise) runs terribly on your hardware? You either suck it up or buy the competition, that's going to be fantastic for the PC scene isn't it. I don't know about you but the vast majority can't afford to run 2 separate machines or switch hardware out whenever they please. Nor should they have to.
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First up, I want an easy life. I'm not remotely interested in who gets 59fps and who gets 60fps, nor who's optimised better. I like to play games not look at numbers.

I'm not saying you need to buy 2 machines, but if you want a game or games thats sponsored by one team you're going to have to pick a side and stick to it. It will come down to whoever has the most money.

The PC scene is already ****ed, you have devs prioritising console on sony and microsoft's say so, then release their **** on a pc port. You've then got AMD releasing their own API in Mantle, you've now got 3 API's on the go, with DX11, DX12 and Vulkan, you've gort freesync and gsync and now you will have to have games optimised for each red or green team to run well. There's already a big divide, its really easy to see. Pick a team and go with it. I'm not saying its a good thing for all, but its happening.
 
Rroff said:
You are eating the Mantle hype - some like those dealing with VR wanted much more access but most mainstream game devs I've talked to don't want to have to spend too much time under the hood unless they really need it.
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I don't agree with you there. Developers are already doing this with the xbox and playstation and they have wanted the same with PC. The previous versions of DX were a nightmare for developers. Dx12 and Vulkan will be much easier.
 
VincentHanna said:
I pick whatever team has the best GPU at the time

I'm not sticking to a side.
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What I said has got nothing to do with who has the best gpu. People who cant make decisions are generally weak. I understand choices are difficult for some people so I only have one bit of advice. Make a decision and stick to it, even if it doesnt work out for you it doesnt mean you did anything wrong.
 
LambChop said:
What I said has got nothing to do with who has the best gpu. People who cant make decisions are generally weak. I understand choices are difficult for some people so I only have one bit of advice. Make a decision and stick to it, even if it doesnt work out for you it doesnt mean you did anything wrong.
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What the hell has this rubbish got anything to do with consumer choice? You come with out with some drivel but this takes the biscuit.
 
back on thread, I wonder what people are expecting from Dx12 and Vulkan? I think people are expecting massive frame rate increases from reading some of the forums.

That's not going to be the case. Dx12 and Vulkan's main advantage will be freeing up the CPU. It will allow for more diversity. For example, if you have 20 boxes on screen, instead of each box been exactly the same, Dx12 will allow you to have 20 different boxes. Ignore the numbers, because I am don't know the limitations. But's that's basically what a low level api will bring.
 
This is something I've been saying all along - you remove the abstraction layers and put the responsibility in the hands of developers instead of the IHV drivers then the developers have op make architecture specific optimizations. There is going to be far more variance between AMD and Nvidia performance, but also intra-variance with some versions of Nvidia or AMD architectures doing better than others, e.g. we saw this with Gears of War where GCN 1.1 was doing far better than GCN 1.2.
 
LambChop said:
It's just the way its heading, there's sony and ms, you have exclusives for each then the dross inbetween. AMD and Nvidia, you've got AMD games and Nvidia games, now they will have to be optimised differently for dx12 and the future, so I think you'll have many more sponsored games from each camp. The divide will be created.

I think its a good thing because If I want to play an optimised DX12 AMD game on my nvidia cards, its not going to run anywhere near as good as the AMD sponsored game, so at least I know what I can and cant buy and there's no guesswork needed. Pick up a green game and go.
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If it got this bad i can see certain gamers will have a AMD card and Nvidia card so when you want to play a certain game optimised on AMD cards you pop the AMD card in. If you want to play a game optimised for nVidia you pop in the nVidia card into your pc.

I think Lambchop is right, this is sorta how consoles are at the moment and if not careful how PC will end up.
 
melmac said:
back on thread, I wonder what people are expecting from Dx12 and Vulkan? I think people are expecting massive frame rate increases from reading some of the forums.

That's not going to be the case. Dx12 and Vulkan's main advantage will be freeing up the CPU. It will allow for more diversity. For example, if you have 20 boxes on screen, instead of each box been exactly the same, Dx12 will allow you to have 20 different boxes. Ignore the numbers, because I am don't know the limitations. But's that's basically what a low level api will bring.
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You are right, the biggest advantage will be an increase on the number of issued commands. DX12 wont really increase performance of an old game much at all because the engine is designed around the limitation of the command buffer, thus in a giant pen world you will see trees that are made identical to each other because they can effectively be rendered as different instances of the same object using far fewer commands: e.g. https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/rendering-grass-with-instancing-in-directx-10.

DX12 will allow many unique objects being sent to the GPU with much less overhead. A very good example that I'm personally interested in (i've been coding such engines on and off for 18 years) is giant open world with mountains and forests and all sorts of plant life. Currently you have to ave very similar trees and plants, lots of duplications, and lots of tricks.

What will happen though is the bottle necks just move. More unique trees and plants on my virtual world massively increase memory usage, geometry throughput, tessellation requirements, compute needs etc. So the real changes will come in the a few years time where will will have hardware capable of exploiting an API that can render far larger more complex worlds with longer draw distances with less repletion. This is when 32GB or 64GB VRAM will become standard to support the vast array of textures and resources visible on screen.
 
r7slayer said:
If it got this bad i can see certain gamers will have a AMD card and Nvidia card so when you want to play a certain game optimised on AMD cards you pop the AMD card in. If you want to play a game optimised for nVidia you pop in the nVidia card into your pc.

I think Lambchop is right, this is sorta how consoles are at the moment and if not careful how PC will end up.
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I also thought about the fact you can mix and match vendors in dx12 (if programmed for?). So you could always have an AMD and Nvidia card, SLI/XF for general games, disable one card or the other for your red and green games. Again, thats something that I believe will have to be programmed for by devs so it could be another hassle, but its an option.
 
melmac said:
I don't agree with you there. Developers are already doing this with the xbox and playstation and they have wanted the same with PC. The previous versions of DX were a nightmare for developers. Dx12 and Vulkan will be much easier.
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With conses they have a single hardware for all xbox users. On a PC they have dozens of different GPU architectures, many different CPU architectures, and hundreds of combinations thereof.

Optimal code for GCN 1.1 is very different to Optimal code for GCN1.2, and depending on what CPU the user has there are still more optimization choices to make.



Consoles are really not comparable to the situation on PCs. You are right in that console developers when porting to the PC noticed some horrible inefficiencies with DX11 -t he biggest being that they can send hundreds of thousands of commands to the console GPU but only thousands to a PC GPU, despite the latter being more powerful. DX had to be made properly multi-threaded, that is for sure.

The low-level stuff is no where near as desirebale. Most console developers have their own wrapper around the low-level API so they can develop at a higher level that corresponds to something like DX11 or even higher. That is just standard software engineering, you never want a big software team poking around at low level hardware calls.
 
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