Dismissal/Appeal/Tribunal!

Richeh

Richeh

Richeh

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Hello,
Never thought I would post a thread on here like this but here I am.

I was dismissed from my role at the Civil Service on 14/06/16 due to excess sick absence. The absence was 11.5 days in a year against my trigger point of 11 and is due to an underlying health condition treated as a 'disability' by the DWP. I had been employed with them for just over 10 years. My job role changed in 2013 and my trigger point was reduced from 20 days to 11 days when I started the new job despite it being within the DWP and our contracts being honored.

The decision breakdown given has been challenged and I wrote an appeal and attended the meeting today. No idea how well it went, I wrote a 4 page appeal breaking down each point of the decision and found that the appeals manager today asked me to go through the entire thing again strangely leading me to believe it may not be successful as I had been warned by the union and other managers that the appeals process tends to be a bit of 'lip service' with managers very rarely overturning colleagues decisions - I took this with a pinch of salt as there were a few large glaring errors in the decision (including a specific line in the DM guidance about not dismissing someone for being a day or two over their trigger point, I was 0.5 days over) and could not believe law/logic would not dictate but we shall see.

Now I have approached this as reinstatement however due to the nature of the job and the past decade in it or similar roles (CMS/JCP) the few weeks I have had off so far not dealing with queries related to that subject matter has been wonderful!

On top of this I have been given 11 weeks Pay in Lieu and a compensation payment that equals about 6 months of wages (when I say given, I mean I have been told/received the letter but no money yet) and this has really had me thinking about looking elsewhere. Again nowhere in particular but if I could go into a non-office job after this long it might be nice, or go into another administrative job for the council etc.

My issues are currently that it will read 'dismissed' on any CV which will put me at a huge disadvantage unless I am offered my job back, however, after speaking with my union rep (who is nice, helpful but have honestly not been able to overturn any decisions) if I was offered my job back there would be no compensation payment, understandable except for the fact that another point in my appeal is they broke their own timescales at every turn and I have had this process ongoing for 3 months. Should I be offered reinstatement they are then admitting that they were wrong and I don't know but do feel that I would like to take it further as an apology will not suffice. Having worked since I was 16 telling friends and family as well as the worry of looking for a new job, wondering how I would manage financially (single and live by myself) and for the first time actually caused me real stress.

What do people think would be the chances of still getting a compensation payment if reinstatement is offered?

Does anyone have any experience getting another job if they were previously dismissed (due to sickness not gross misconduct)?

If the appeal is rejected it will be taken to the employment tribunal, hopefully by the PCS solicitors but they will only take a case if they have an 80% chance of winning (nevermind i've been paying them for 10 years!) but if not a private solicitor.

Any help/advice appreciated.
 
I cant offer any advice but I am aghast that you would be dismissed for having 11 days sick in 12 months. Is there no policy to manage absence or look at underlying reasons for sickness? No warnings, no performance management, just dismissal?

When you say civil service, can you be more specific? Local council, government officer, etc?
 
WillyNelson said:
I cant offer any advice but I am aghast that you would be dismissed for having 11 days sick in 12 months. Is there no policy to manage absence or look at underlying reasons for sickness? No warnings, no performance management, just dismissal?

When you say civil service, can you be more specific? Local council, government officer, etc?
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DWP I think. We all know how they treat disabled people...
 
I suspect for any future employer, they would be keen to understand the reasons for sickness. For example if you use a computer and had broken both arms then there's little you could do about it - although i'm not sure if they'd have grounds for dismissal here.

I presume the 11 days sickness is unauthorised absence - i.e. not needed signing off from your doctor?
 
Yes there is a 3 strike system however the initial 2 strikes were at a trigger point of 9 days, they upped it to 11 3-4 months prior to the final breach (Cant remmeber exactly as dont have paperwork in front of me and I did advise them in the meeting about this that I believed it needed to be at least a day higher).

I suffer from migraines. Have done since I was 16 but only diagnosed when I was 20 and started working full time at the Jobcentre. I honestly had 30+ Dr appointments, Neurologist, ENT clinic, £1000's spent on a Chiropractor with almost no real identifying issue, Its fairly random and the Dr advised me as such.

I work for the Child Maintenance Service and have done since September 2013, I worked at he Jobcentre since April 2006 but we were all transferred there when our building closed down (to be re-opened and a third if the jobs re-advertised!).

It was authorised absence in that I folliwed the required procedures by phoning in in due time, it tends to be just 1 day at a time, sometimes 2 if my sleeping pattern gets really messed up. I also have Asthma but it doesn't seem to play up much. I didn't get a Dr's notes but unauthorised absence in their terms is not being in contact etc

Thanks for the support.
 
Richeh said:
Yes there is a 3 strike system however the initial 2 strikes were at a trigger point of 9 days, they upped it to 11 3-4 months prior to the final breach (Cant remmeber exactly as dont have paperwork in front of me and I did advise them in the meeting about this that I believed it needed to be at least a day higher).

I suffer from migraines. Have done since I was 16 but only diagnosed when I was 20 and started working full time at the Jobcentre. I honestly had 30+ Dr appointments, Neurologist, ENT clinic, £1000's spent on a Chiropractor with almost no real identifying issue, Its fairly random and the Dr advised me as such.

I work for the Child Maintenance Service and have done since September 2013, I worked at he Jobcentre since April 2006 but we were all transferred there when our building closed down (to be re-opened and a third if the jobs re-advertised!).

It was authorised absence in that I folliwed the required procedures by phoning in in due time, it tends to be just 1 day at a time, sometimes 2 if my sleeping pattern gets really messed up. I also have Asthma but it doesn't seem to play up much. I didn't get a Dr's notes but unauthorised absence in their terms is not being in contact etc

Thanks for the support.
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with that health issue working long hours in front of a computer screen could well be a factor or the prime cause, look for work not staring at a screen if you can. it could well help your health issue
 
get a friend request a reference for you, the employer will probably only confirm employment dates, just miss off the sacked bit from your CV... with your full explanation (trigger point 11 days, sacked after 11.5) and no offence I would assume you were rubbish and they just wanted you out... I mean when employer is going to sack someone for 11.5 days sick..? I'd assume there was some dispute - how come you just did not take a days leave knowing the trigger point?
 
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sorry to hear about your situation, at my work under 2 different MD's they have dismissed people for sick, they use the Bradford factor for scoring, it sucks really. any way, i wish you luck but if its anything like the place i work, when the decision is made, thats it, they will go through the appeal system because they have to and the en result will still be the same. but we live in hope right?
 
Yeah that absence pattern is going to get you an awful Bradford Factor score. Absolutely sucky situation to be in.

I'd attempt to negotiate with them that you'll drop the case looking to get reinstated if they can guarantee a positive reference with no mention of your employment being terminated.

You can then spin it as you wanted to do some travelling in any interview.
 
Thanks again, sadly its not computers that cause it. Have had weeks off on holidays and still get them, plus they started 4 years before working there. But to be fair i've sought medical advice for 10 years and know my situation.

Sadly they didnt actually want me out due to my work (suprisingly good at my job) but increased budget cuts means they look to save everywhere and if procedures are breached unless you have a crafty manager the process will be followed and you will end up dismissed.

It really is for being half a day over, my line manager despite having to start the process themselves were shocked it led to dismissal and my previous 2 managers have phoned me personally to say they cant believe it etc and the higher managers dont care about the work just the process etc

My biggest surprise is how many procedures they broke and did not follow yet still came to this decision which makes me think until a tribunal it will be DWP logic through and through.

Yes I would like a different job but I work to live and earnt decent enough there that a typical supermarket job would require me to work an extra 15ish hours per week to earn the same. And nothing I specifically want to do apart from have money to buy/do the things I like.
 
Ah migraines suck - fortunately I understand 90% of what trigger mine and can avoid them most of the time. My brother went through the whole rigmarole of trying to narrow down what caused his (used to get them several times a week) and fortunately found some medication that stops them dead - I've never found any medication that will touch mine. Fortunately where he worked was more understanding of the problem and tried to work with him as much as possible.
 
Having been a CS for a number of years now I don't think I've ever seen them make huge mistakes or not follow the procedure by the book when it comes to a)Sickness and b)Dismissal.

They are usually as by the book as you can get in those examples as they can be a minefield.

If everything has happened as you say then I'd say you have grounds for a tribunal bud.
 
Richeh said:
I honestly had 30+ Dr appointments, Neurologist, ENT clinic, £1000's spent on a Chiropractor with almost no real identifying issue, Its fairly random and the Dr advised me as such.
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Oh god please don't waste money on Chiropractors, it is health fraud and pseudoscience not medicine!
 
Just an update for anyone intested. Appeal went knowhere so currently with solicitor who has written a couple of letters although doubt I will take it further if nothing due to cost.

Have my first job interview on Friday. Team Leader position in a charity. Have applied for several administration positions but thisis the first interview I had which is strangely the only application form that didnt require me to mention that I was dismissed!

Will be good experience but little worried about when the dismissal comes up but will try and pass over it quickly.
 
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