DLSS 5 preview

[sgoaty]

I'm look forward to it. Hopefully it comes to earlier cards. If it looks horrible I won't use it so nothing to lose.

 

[Calin Banc]

And yet Nvidia presented it as one of the roads forth recently, with AI added on top (of course) to fill in the blanks - Splats give a lot of details, then we get polygon based characters for example and AI adding missing data. As he shown in the video, changing lighting depending on the angle is trivial, even though that data is static. Then developer of the software in comments said there are ways to import it into game engine in usable way bit is a pain in the bum at the moment, as this is all early days of this tech. Also, static environment only at far (no destruction) but that's no different from modern games anyways, sadly.

PT is horribly slow and inefficient, that's why they slap AI on top to fix very low quality of the resulting image (noise, ghosting, high latency, low resolution etc.). Don't lie to yourself it's fast, what you see is simple version of it with a lot of stuff bolted on top to make it usable at all, and it's still it's not even close to what CGI in films represents.

There's one thing to change the angle of lighting based already on the light that was in the scene that you've "scanned" (like prebacked lighting and moving around such a scene in a game) and another thing to relight the whole scene in real time - like PT does. For this last part he's going into Octane (17:42). You'll also see there artifacts from the fog as he moves the light in that scene and plenty of artifacts in general or at the very least, the feeling of gen AI image.

AS for static environments... well, vegetation does move around, boxes, chairs, etc. Is not Red Faction level, but you do have some sort of physics involved.

Path tracing is obviously not at the same level as in movies yet, but is fast enough to run it in real time and have an advantage over rasterization. I think RT for reflections is faster than SSR on pshyco level in CB77 ( at least for me) and not to mentions that if you give the ability to cast shadows to every light in raster... is dead (plus no large area lights, just point lights).

 

[Tinek]

There's one thing to change the angle of lighting based already on the light that was in the scene that you've "scanned" (like prebacked lighting and moving around such a scene in a game) and another thing to relight the whole scene in real time - like PT does. For this last part he's going into Octane (17:42). You'll also see there artifacts from the fog as he moves the light in that scene and plenty of artifacts in general or at the very least, the feeling of gen AI image.

That's correct, but as I said it's very early days of this tech and that's where AI based GI comes in, instead of PT, with potentially much better results. Also all of that is being run currently on the good old raster units, which some people claim should go away and be replaced by pure RT stuff. But those have so much more to give still, they're not really going anywhere and RT/PT is mainly limited by memory throughout currently (as Sony and AMD explained, not even fastest L1 cache is far enough for it currently). New tech of memory is needed to get actually fast performance out of PT with better quality and the makes it currently a dead end with progress - it's as good as it can be quiet current vRAM speeds, it seems.

AS for static environments... well, vegetation does move around, boxes, chairs, etc. Is not Red Faction level, but you do have some sort of physics involved.

That's why we can have hybrid with static environment as Gaussian and whatever needs to move as polygons. One doesn't fully replace the other, they are complementary.

Path tracing is obviously not at the same level as in movies yet, but is fast enough to run it in real time and have an advantage over rasterization.

And huge amount of issues that can't be resolved very well unless we go fully AI. But then why even bother with PT, when we already seen live presentation of GI done fully by AI models way faster, with no noise issues and running on any vendor (as it uses standard compute units and not even tensor cores)? It just looks like a dead end curiosity and not the final solution imo. But also more work by Devs and ue didn't implement it so big studios would resist - they would have to hire better people and pay them more.

It looks I think RT for reflections

Reflections by RT are relatively easy to do and do not put that much strain on modern GPUs. PT is used for GI mostly and that's horribly slow. Replace PT with AI GI, use RT just for reflections and suddenly much better performance and runs on mid cards without the need for much denoising (just reflections) etc.

not to mentions that if you give the ability to cast shadows to every light in raster... is dead (plus no large area lights, just point lights).

That's absolutely not true, shadows in raster are very good quality and very fast these days. You can barely see any difference in shadows alone when in cp2077 raster ones worked way faster last time I played with it in 4090 and looked near identical. And since then even better shadowing raster methods were shown. In addition, a lot of light sources in PT games do not cast shadows at all - it's all very simplified for performance reasons.

And just btw, full PT is so slow that even Hollywood uses a lot of shortcut and hybrid rendering to make it work fast enough for sensible production - I've linked months ago video about it, showing how caustics are faked by Hollywood, and many other effects just to make things faster. Hybrid rendering is the way to go even on huge render farms and you think single GPUs can do it in pure mode? Nah.

 

[Calin Banc]

That's correct, but as I said it's very early days of this tech and that's where AI based GI comes in, instead of PT, with potentially much better results. Also all of that is being run currently on the good old raster units, which some people claim should go away and be replaced by pure RT stuff. But those have so much more to give still, they're not really going anywhere and RT/PT is mainly limited by memory throughout currently (as Sony and AMD explained, not even fastest L1 cache is far enough for it currently). New tech of memory is needed to get actually fast performance out of PT with better quality and the makes it currently a dead end with progress - it's as good as it can be quiet current vRAM speeds, it seems.


That's why we can have hybrid with static environment as Gaussian and whatever needs to move as polygons. One doesn't fully replace the other, they are complementary.

Where is that AI based GI with better results? I hope is not something akin to DLSS 5 which is stuck with screen space as that will be a step back.
Having just some particular pieces done with Splats doesn't sound that impressive to me when you have Nanite for that, plus for vegetation and characters supporting animation, destruction, etc.

Is not like PT has been implemented to the best of its capabilities yet. 5090 is doing 4k@DLSS Quality 80-90fps and RTX 4070@1440p DLSS Quality is doing 58 fps in the latest Megageometry demo with path tracing.

As for AMD and Sony... first deliver something at least to the same quality and performance as nVIDIA and then say what is or is not possible.

And huge amount of issues that can't be resolved very well unless we go fully AI. But then why even bother with PT, when we already seen live presentation of GI done fully by AI models way faster, with no noise issues and running on any vendor (as it uses standard compute units and not even tensor cores)? It just looks like a dead end curiosity and not the final solution imo. But also more work by Devs and ue didn't implement it so big studios would resist - they would have to hire better people and pay them more.

Which AI models are doing that PT in real time, with no noise, on current gen hw?

Reflections by RT are relatively easy to do and do not put that much strain on modern GPUs. PT is used for GI mostly and that's horribly slow. Replace PT with AI GI, use RT just for reflections and suddenly much better performance and runs on mid cards without the need for much denoising (just reflections) etc.

Reflections are fast if you're doing 1:1 (mirror like), but get more expensive on diffuse surfaces.

That's absolutely not true, shadows in raster are very good quality and very fast these days. You can barely see any difference in shadows alone when in cp2077 raster ones worked way faster last time I played with it in 4090 and looked near identical. And since then even better shadowing raster methods were shown. In addition, a lot of light sources in PT games do not cast shadows at all - it's all very simplified for performance reasons.

Some of them don't cast shadows because they were never thought to do it in the first place (game was made with raster in mind) and, of course, no one is doing a separate lighting pass just for PT. However, in CB77 you can enable via mods that they do cast shadows, remove the fake raster lighting that is still in the game even with PT, etc. The only real issue is the smearing, not the noise, but I guess if you could play around with settings more, you can find a better balance.

And no, shadows aren't that great in raster.

And just btw, full PT is so slow that even Hollywood uses a lot of shortcut and hybrid rendering to make it work fast enough for sensible production - I've linked months ago video about it, showing how caustics are faked by Hollywood, and many other effects just to make things faster. Hybrid rendering is the way to go even on huge render farms and you think single GPUs can do it in pure mode? Nah.

Well, like I've said, you do it in small steps, it's still a great leap ahead.

 

[tommybhoy]

S-Game's hints DLSS5 won't be implemented in Phantom Blade Zero despite appearing on Nv's list of DLSS5 partners.

We are fully aware that a profound technological revolution is unfolding around us. However, to this day, every single piece of content in our game has been crafted by the hands of real artists. We will not use AI visual tech that could alter our artists' original creative intent

https://twitter.com/x/status/2042420654960738477

 

[Dicehunter]

I'm quite looking forward to testing it later this year when it comes out, Don't really care about character faces but the environmental improvements look really nice.

With them already running it on a single 5090 I'm hoping they optimise the hell out of it so people with 70 or 80 class cards can try it too.

 

[Calin Banc]

S-Game's hints DLSS5 won't be implemented in Phantom Blade Zero despite appearing on Nv's list of DLSS5 partners.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2042420654960738477

Giving the backlash, even if they were planning to do it, now it's better to avoid the whole thing entirely.

 

[opethdisciple]

Microsoft to essentially make DLSS5 like technology (Microsoft's version) part of the DX specification.

 

[Devil_Spawn]

I do feel like if it is used tastefully and carefully it could lead to some really cool results, but I suspect that it will just be slapped on to everything and be terrible