Do htpcs give a better picture than dvd players?

6 months is early but even if its approx £300 for a HD-DVDrom drive its still cheaper than a Full HD-DVD machine will cost. Of course after a while prices will tumble no different to DVD burners.

I look forward to running my HTPC in the livingroom via Vista MCE and have it filled with HD Movies with a 360 as an extender in the loft. Already started flogging some of my DVDs to get them replaced in HD versions. :D

You wont find me recommending any fancy/expensive scalers with HD-DVD BLU-RAY on our doorstep.

For *** OP I only use the Nvidia Codec with Theatretek and find it excellent via DVI-HDMI 1200x700 custom res.
 
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I've compared an decent dvd & scaler setup to a well configured HTPC, ease of use the DVD/scaler combo wins but PQ wise it there was very very little in it (scaler edged it & I mean just edged it), flexibility obviously the HTPC won hands down.

As Latte mentions with HD about to become the norm the scaler is looking less intersting.

One thing to note though, anyone planning viewing HD on current HD tv's, make sure you dont let the TV scale the image, feed it with a signal matching the tv's native res, especially for 1080i material, almost all tv's out now do a hatchet job on 1080i material, they basically display scaled 540p.. goes something like this..

1080i into tv, tv de-interlaces badly to 540p, tv scales image up to 720p

I have read that sky are talking about 1080i transmissions, almost all current HD tv's are going to do a hatchet job with that, this is one area where a scaler may still be of some use.

Even sets with 1080p panels (like the 37" Philips) are not de-interlacing 1080i properly, they scale to 540, deinterlace then upscale again, pretty poor IMO.
 
Next gen LCD TVs in Japan will have full motion compensated I2P in them.
I know because I was involved in the design of one.
This does actually de-interlace 1080i properly, with no scaling involved.
So another few years and it might actually make its way to the UK!
 
from what Ive read I think we can expect to see "proper" HDTV's this year, certainly hope so as Ive been holding off buying one for this very reason.
 
'Proper' HDTVs this year?

Funny - my Hitachi displays both HD broadcast standards perfectly OK. If you mean a 1080p display which doesn't covert 1080p to 1080i and then back again then you may have to wait until somebody agrees a 1080p TV standard.

If you want a 1080p LCD to use with a PS3 then dell do very nice 24" and 30" screen but they ain't TVs

Until we dump SD TV a 1366*768 screen is a good compromise of a decent HD picture and a decent upscaled SD picture.
 
Bomag said:
'Proper' HDTVs this year?

Funny - my Hitachi displays both HD broadcast standards perfectly OK. If you mean a 1080p display which doesn't covert 1080p to 1080i and then back again then you may have to wait until somebody agrees a 1080p TV standard.

If you want a 1080p LCD to use with a PS3 then dell do very nice 24" and 30" screen but they ain't TVs

Until we dump SD TV a 1366*768 screen is a good compromise of a decent HD picture and a decent upscaled SD picture.

like I said in Mr L's other post (nice to see him back posting, getting some interesting discussions going again), the PQ from current tv's is ok, but the panels are badly let down by cost cutting electronics.. just seems a waste to me, decent panels not being used to their full potential.
 
Thing is that HD will not be the norm for at least 6 years and more like 10. HD-DVD will be good (Preordered my Tosh player already) but where scalers earnt there money is on SD feeds such as Sky+ etc.

Even a 1080p feed will benefit from being passed thru a scaler (well a good HD scaler anyway)

Also remember that most people with scalers will be running SDI - SDI blows HDMI out of the water and is far more flexable. A HTPC certinally has benefits with the ability of playing lots of file types and displaying pics and playing music etc - at some point i will add a htpc to my setup - the one thing it will not be doing is de-interlacing and scaling.

As an aside Mr Latte, have NV + ATi started to add HDCP chips to their cards yet, last time i looked (when i got my 7800gtx) they had HDCP ability but none of the cards had HDCP chips on them ? i figured you may know more as you are very up with current htpc stuff !
 
mcmad said:
like I said in Mr L's other post (nice to see him back posting, getting some interesting discussions going again), the PQ from current tv's is ok, but the panels are badly let down by cost cutting electronics.. just seems a waste to me, decent panels not being used to their full potential.

Well nice to be welcomed back, sometimes you just have to leave home i suppose.

As shown in the other thread scaling can have major drawbacks regarding this overscan stuff. Now when was the last time you read in a magazine review how great a particular display was but they actually even compared or checked the overscan, pack of amateurs. Thank God for forums and busy little bees like us.

*Nivida say a bios update can allow HDCP but does this mean it wont be possible via safer driver updates. Somehow think a midprice approx £80 HDCP/HDMI ouptut card will be ideal.
 
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Mc Mad can i ask if youd recommend then that HDTV material from a PC is best outputed in a custom res rather than matching the res to the source.

Example:
Ok you know by now i run 1200x700 out from my GFX my Tv will scale this to its 1366x768 For me this seems the best option for me but mostly because of the overscan control rather than being restricted to the displays scalers overscan.

However im curious to what settings you guys recommend for Theatretek and VLC etc as ive yet to fully tweak my display/HTPC. You mention the 1080i-540p so whats the alternatives? Also i need to be sure on the Nvida Codecs recommended.

For 1080i should i:
1) Keep custom res setting
2) Set PC to 1920x1080i and rely on Tvs scaler

For 720p should i:
1) Keep custom res setting
2) Set PC to 1280x720 and rely on Tvs scaler

I know already what i prefer, but just to help explain to others id appreciate some thoughts.
 
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Nvidia cant bios update cards as they simply do not have the HDCP chip on them. It cant be built into another chip and only 2 companies make them so its easy to spot. I know up to the 7800GTX they defi do not have them.

I guess when Vista comes out they will add them then.
 
Mr Latte said:
However im curious to what settings you guys recommend for Theatretek and VLC etc as ive yet to fully tweak my display/HTPC. You mention the 1080i-540p so whats the alternatives? Also i need to be sure on the Nvida Codecs recommended.

For 1080i should i:
1) Keep custom res setting
2) Set PC to 1920x1080i and rely on Tvs scaler

For 720p should i:
1) Keep custom res setting
2) Set PC to 1280x720 and rely on Tvs scaler

I know already what i prefer, but just to help explain to others id appreciate some thoughts.

ok for de-interlacing, really only one choice. Theatertek with NV hardware, in Theatertek configuration you select pixel adaptive de-interlacing, this is as close to the quality of an external scaler box as you will get with a HTPC. Theatertek includes the NV purevideo decoder, dont install it seperately, the TT ones are always newer thant direct from NV.

Non adaptive interlacing techniques basically throw away odd or even frames so only use 540 lines of info (these are the common bob/weave etc techniques used by the majority of playback software & hardware), the missing lines are interpolated.. not good..

Pixel adaptive works for sure on the 7800GTX cards, I think it works on others with correct drivers but you need to check on that (if you have the option in TT it works)

the top external scalars use this technique & it basically works by discarding pixels (rather than frames) that would have shown combing effects, so instead of losing whole frames you lose individual pixels, end result a much higher PQ, expensive scalers go further & then use diagonal interpolation etc to get rid of jaggies but thats another discussion..

As for res, I would always recommend scaling using the HTPC to the native res of the display, this seems to be causing you problems though so output it as close to your native res as possible.

Dont feed your tv with 1080i it will hatchet job it to 540 lines then scale up to 720p - not good... get the HTPC to apply proper de-interlacing & then do a 2/3 size scaling.. much better.

Play it back with theatertek to de-interlace & use ffdshow as the secondary post processing (selectable in theatertek configuration, assuming you have it installed of course) to scale it to whatever res you want to use & sharpen or whatever else you want to do with the image.. avsforums are good for ffdshow configuration info.

bottom line on res, native is best but tv's vary on how they deal with it, so its really down to personal choice what you are happy with but certainly try & avoid using the tv's own scaler as much as possible


beginning of March I will be setting up a new HTPC & projector for my cinema room, I'll try & do a full guide on setting up TT & ffdshow for optimal PQ. There are a huge amount of options/tweaks in ffdshow, it can be quite daunting to use..
 
Shimmyhill said:
Nvidia cant bios update cards as they simply do not have the HDCP chip on them. It cant be built into another chip and only 2 companies make them so its easy to spot. I know up to the 7800GTX they defi do not have them.

I guess when Vista comes out they will add them then.

I mentioned it as a respected website which tackled Nvidia regarding HDCP replied with regards mentioning the "bios update was possible on cards since the FX range" If it doesent happen like theve said (heah id doubt it too) ive said a few times that a budget card will soon have full HDMI and HDCP.

I can get you the article if you want but its Nvidias comment not my own
You say it cant be built into the chips, maybe your an expert with graphic card design sorry i cant argue with you on this one im only saying what ive read.

Sony%20HTPC%20HDMI.jpg

Sonys current latest HTPC available with 200 Disc changer in the USA.
This is actually the replacement due shown at the CES with 200 BLU-RAY changer and full HDMI ouput courtesy of a custom Nvidia card.
 
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Thanks Mc Mad will look into a bit of tweaking for the HTPC im not so sure about overdosing on ffdshow. So far my configuration is looking pretty good with all my HD content.

If i connect a standalone HD-DVD player or BLU-RAY direct to the HDTV this will just "hachet" the image the same way as the PC would via outputting in a matching res/source as mentioned above. Again overscan is the biggest drawback but id say image on mine is hard to tell between a 1080i ouput resolution with 1080i material compared to my custom 12x7 res.

On 1080i resolution from the GFX card id say i notice abit of shimmering in some scenes but in scaling terms (forget overscan) the quality is very simular to my PC doing the custom resolution. I dont doubt the quality of the scaler in my HDTV and as tested the overscan is only bad with 480/540 material.

Ahh tweaking tweaking tweaking sometimes its just nice to sit down and watch summit.
 
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