Do I need a standalone satnav?

The simple reason is that TMC tables only cover about 15% of the UK's roads at a very rough level of precision and a 15 minute update interval. There is basically no coverage of most B roads downwards so traffic rediversion is basically out of the frying pan into the fire

You seem to know quite a lot about this - could you tell us more? I've always wondered how TMC actually works - sometimes it's absolutely spot on and very useful other times it warns me about a horrible delay that doesn't exist.

My BMW nav the other day refused to send me down the A380 out of Paignton, I ignored it as I often do because it's often wrong and then spent 45 minutes covering just 300 yards. Ouch. Lesson learned, though the TMC feed was reporting 'average speed 27mph' which obviously wasn't the case.

I assumed it was manually entered by people looking at cameras etc.

Is TMC basically dead now or can we expect improvements in the future?
 
I always fine TMC slow, and about as useful as the overhead signs on motorways!

How about the Tomtom app on phones, are they anygood?
 
[TW]Fox;26738179 said:
You seem to know quite a lot about this - could you tell us more? I've always wondered how TMC actually works - sometimes it's absolutely spot on and very useful other times it warns me about a horrible delay that doesn't exist.

My BMW nav the other day refused to send me down the A380 out of Paignton, I ignored it as I often do because it's often wrong and then spent 45 minutes covering just 300 yards. Ouch. Lesson learned, though the TMC feed was reporting 'average speed 27mph' which obviously wasn't the case.

I assumed it was manually entered by people looking at cameras etc.

Is TMC basically dead now or can we expect improvements in the future?
I thought TMC just got data from those traffic master cameras on major A roads and motorways?
 
TMC gets it data from those little blue sensors that people keep confusing for speed cameras. It monitors the flow and estimates delays and speeds from it.
 
[TW]Fox;26738179 said:
You seem to know quite a lot about this - could you tell us more? I've always wondered how TMC actually works - sometimes it's absolutely spot on and very useful other times it warns me about a horrible delay that doesn't exist.

I may post a thread summarising all of the live traffic systems currently available for UK satnavs soon. Might take me a little while though. Not much free time this week.

Even within OEM In Car satnavs now, RDS-TMC is being phased out for newer cars. It's old tech with no real prospect of being upgraded (RDS is 'Radio Data System' over FM and is too low bandwidth for an upgrade, TMC is the location referencing system, which can be modified but, with a few exceptions, only covers A Roads and Motorways). There's no deadline for RDS-TMC to be phased out but it will die when they eventually do away with FM Radio.
 
I recently got a new Sat Nav and had my mind set on the 3598-LMT-D as I saw too many negative reports on the latest tomtom devices.

However, after trying them out in the shop, I actually went for the Tomtom GO 6000. It was far easier to input addresses(especially when going abroad) or search for places, it had way more POIs.. Not to mention it has it's own sim-card with Map updates and HD Traffic for life (You only have to pay for speed camera updates after 3 months). It also searches online for POIs which is cool.

I took it on a road trip through Europe and it's been superb, the HD traffic worked really well, and finding addresses quickly was a breeze..

The main thing with the Tomtom has been the updates, it originally was quite featureless and got a ton of negative reviews, but tomtom have massively updated the software so just about all major criticisms have been addressed, even the Voice works amazingly well with full address input working well for the UK.

Not to mention the new tomtom front end and graphics are so much cleaner and more modern then the very old school garmin.

I paid £240 for the GO6000 with case and fast charger, and it's been worth every penny.

The main thing is the traffic, Tomtom's HD traffic is second to none IMO, way better then the TMC traffic.

Oh, I also use a small plastic disk that discreetly sticks to the dash, and mount the sat-nav to that, this avoids sticking it on windscreens and lets you place it in a more discreet location so prying eyes won't easily spot it.

I totally disagree with your there. I've always been a tomtom user and was pretty set on buying the 6000, but after trying them both out in the shop, the 3598 seemed miles better to me. Tomtom had removed loads of features that were standard even on my old XL Live, whereas the Garmin had everything my tomtom had, plus a load more. The speed camera locations were far better as well, and I found the live traffic far better than my tomtom, which would invariably send me off motorways and down minor roads which were just as congested.

I guess the 6000 may have been improved with updates - I tried it a couple of months after release, but for me it was inferior to the Garmin in every way.
 
Tomtom claim to cover 99% of the UK's roads on a 2 minute update interval. They achieve this using 'floating car data' probes (basically they constantly track anyone with a tomtom based app or satnav, plus anonymised location data from Vodafone and Apple). They also get roadworks data from the highways agency, traffic wales, traffic Scotland and TfL. The degree of precision for jam locations is down to 10s of metres where they have good data.


Google use this; I've noticed it recently when on a motorway and we start to slow down the map almost instantly registers as amber or red.

I don't know how TomTom calculate journey time, but I know Google use an aggregation of current traffic conditions against average traffic & speed data to come up with an ETA. Recently I've found it to be very accurate even when I got caught up in traffic and thought I'd be delayed - I was within minutes of Google's ETA.
 
Google use this; I've noticed it recently when on a motorway and we start to slow down the map almost instantly registers as amber or red.

I don't know how TomTom calculate journey time, but I know Google use an aggregation of current traffic conditions against average traffic & speed data to come up with an ETA. Recently I've found it to be very accurate even when I got caught up in traffic and thought I'd be delayed - I was within minutes of Google's ETA.

Tomtom use a similar but more detailed system that covers more roads than Google. Their maps incorporate speed profile data where every section of road on the map incorporates historic average speed profile data based on floating car data. This is broken down into 15minute segments over a 7 day week. On Tomtom's own satnavs and apps this is built into the routing and called IQRoutes.

Tomtom do two main live traffic products. Tomtom traffic (formerly HD Traffic) runs over the top of the speed profiles / IQRoutes data and broadcasts the live differences from average speed. The other product is Tomtom traffic flow, which has the two integrated and uses more data but can be applied to non-tomtom maps.

Agree that the new Tomtom Go x0, x00 and x000 products are less fully featured than older Tomtoms but they have recently had a software update restoring a good deal of the features that older high end Tomtoms had. They are now perhaps approaching the products they should have been. I reiterate my note of caution regarding the 5000 and 6000 and older Tomtom Live units. Their 2G only data connection is being let down by Vodafone's infrastructure and I would be surprised if it gets sorted out any time soon. The Tomtom Forums are currently awash with people complaining about people losing live traffic info at busy times.

IMO, Garmin units are generally more polished looking, fully featured and user-friendly but even their newest traffic product offers nowhere near the level of detail, precision and accuracy that Tomtom provide. If you just want a navitation device and aren't bothered about live Traffic, Garmin's products are better. Traffic really is Tomtom's killer feature. I can only see the continually improving Google catching them in the next few years.
 
I totally disagree with your there. I've always been a tomtom user and was pretty set on buying the 6000, but after trying them both out in the shop, the 3598 seemed miles better to me. Tomtom had removed loads of features that were standard even on my old XL Live, whereas the Garmin had everything my tomtom had, plus a load more. The speed camera locations were far better as well, and I found the live traffic far better than my tomtom, which would invariably send me off motorways and down minor roads which were just as congested.

I guess the 6000 may have been improved with updates - I tried it a couple of months after release, but for me it was inferior to the Garmin in every way.

As I said, Tomtom have made massive improvements in the software since launch, and luckily I demo'd a GO6000 5 weeks ago on the latest software version, which added voice control, and a raft of the originally missing features, just about all that is missing now is the ability to put third party POIs on it.

Things the Tomtom impressed me with
1. Search for my parents Spanish townhouse address, I simply hit search and partially spelt their road name (I was unsure of the correct spelling) and it searched all maps pretty much instantly and offered their road as the number 1 suggestion. The Garmin needed me to go through the usual steps of inputting country, then town, then street name. (This was all done standing in the shop in the UK), in fact I couldn't find the address at all until I tried the tomtom and realised I had mispelt the last vowel in their street name, which Tomtom got me around because it's live search picked up the address before I got to the end of the word.
2. The POI search for some random shops and places was evidently more successful on the Tomtom, and the 'search online' furthered that gap
3. The display graphics are much more appealing, it actually looks 'modern'
4. HD Traffic for life is a nice addition
5. The Text to speech voice (not the default btw) is very natural sounding and even attempts passably with foreign names.


After owning it for a month or two, I am still impressed, it's been very accurate, the traffic has picked up way more hot spots then I thought it would, the voice control is amazing (but you need to be patient)..
However, for fairness, the following are the negatives I've found
1. Updates to maps/main software is done via a PC and takes an age (even on a 160mbit connection)
2. The full lane assist (like all lane assists) can lead to confusion on complex junctions, especially if you where not paying attention prior to it bringing up the large lane assist animation, which hides the main map and your actual position, this caused a minor detour on our 2200 mile euro trip until I found out how to switch it off.
3. Voice control struggles with cabin noise present (as you'd expect) and you need to be patient with it..
4. I found the roadworks where 24 hours out of date, so ones that ended that day would still appear into the following day.
5. Like all PND's it's a bit laggy at times and you wonder why you can't get a super quick processor in these things (the Garmin was similarly laggy).

Traffic HD has been almost flawless, it picks up B-road rush hour jams, it's never steered me off-course incorrectly in 4000 miles of use and I like how roadworks are handled. Speed cams are OK, but being honest, they are slow to remove roadwork average camera's etc, although they picked up 100% of known speed cams around me and my parents in Spain, so I can't complain too much.
 
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Thanks - very informative replies. I'd read the negative reviews about the latest Tomtom and favoured the Garmin, but didn't know there'd been a revamp.
I'll be buying the Go 6000, cheers.
 
Thanks - very informative replies. I'd read the negative reviews about the latest Tomtom and favoured the Garmin, but didn't know there'd been a revamp.
I'll be buying the Go 6000, cheers.

Just reiterating that note of caution regarding the 5000 and 6000's 2G Modem. The Go 600 is basically the same but connects to a smartphone by bluetooth for its data connecton so doesn't suffer from the connection problems. It's about £100 cheaper too.

The Go 5000 and 500 offer the same features but with a smaller screen.

Connection problems do seem to be down to local Vodafone capacity issues and not a problem with the units themselves. It does mean that Tomtom probably have little control on if and when the infrastructure will get fixed / upgraded. Particular blackspots reported on the Tomtom forums are a good deal of the Southerm M1, M25, M3 and M4 plus surrounding areas (but only usually at peak times).
 
The 5000 and 6000 both have a built in 2G modem running on Vodafone. They can't use a smartphone for a data connection.

Edit: It's also worth mentioning that Tomtom will soon launch a Tomtom Go app on Android and iPhone (the current Tomtom app is based on the older Nav3 interface - the new ones are known as Nav4/Navkit). It's currently undergoing a pilot in Italy before launching woldwide. The app will be freemium based - 70km per month free then a subscription if you use it more. The Italian prices are 3,99 euro per month, 19,99 euro per 12 months, or 44,99 euro per 3 years. Traffic and speed cameras are included.

The Tomtom Go! app was initially functionally identical with the Go x0, x00 and x000 series but they have since had that important software update. I expect that the app will get the same update. The current Tomtom Go Series are essentially Android based anyway so I would expct it to remain essentially the same software.

Incidentally, I believe that Route 66 Navigate is also based on the same API, using the same maps and traffic data, but running a different skin with a few tweaks. I've not seen the API confirmed anywhere officially though but maps and traffic are confirmed. It also lacks some of the features of the latest software updates for the TT Go series but Route 66 have included a few useful features of their own.
 
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Warning on Waze, it prioritises motorways on long journeys, even if it knows the motorway is at a standstill. I found this out at the weekend where it knew the M6 was manic but decided it preferred motorway to diverting to A roads.

Apparently its preferences are dependent on length of route.
 
[TW]Fox;26736420 said:
I'd stick with the OEM nav as it's far better than faffing around sticking things to windscreens etc. You will get traffic on that unit through TMC.

Not being able to enter full postcodes may annoy the OP?
 
Tomtom with live HD traffic is hardly any better than Google maps IMHO. I have both on my phone and will be cancelling the traffic on the tomtom and moving to Google maps (note this has waze integrated, as Google brought them out)
 
I bought updated 2014 European DVDs off ebay for half the price what Audi wanted for my 2007 RNS-E Plus. It works fine with TMC.

What am I missing by not upgrading the firmware at the dealer?
 
[TW]Fox;26737987 said:
No, it's like recommending that somebody who already has a PC running Windows 95 doesn't instead replace it with a better PC that you have to use sitting in the garden :p

Sticking crappy portable things to the window is annoying and frustratingly impractical - I find it a real pain especially as you have to faff about removing it and all trace it was ever installed every time you stop for a coffee or whatever lest some mouth breather breaks in to steal it.

That said I really don't understand why TMC is so useless at times. I agree with you, it is, but I can't understand why - it's almost as if the people who enter the data can't be bothered to do it properly.

Leave it on? I've had my TomTom permanently on my windscreen for a 4 months now. Working in random industrial estates all over the country and it's not been stolen?

People won't try and break into a car for a satnav worth £30/40 on the street.
 
I used to do the same until someone broke in and stole it when it was parked in my drive. Unfortunately it does happen, although I can see why you'd be happy to take the risk. The annoying thing isn't the satnav itself being stolen, it's the damage they do to your car in the process.
 
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