Do managers really make a difference?

Bassmansam · 12 Oct 2017 at 10:12

This is something that has bugged me over the last few years. The media seem to love talking about managers as if they actually make that much of a difference.

Take Guardiola for example, I assume he was a good player to play for Barcelona? So he wants to go into management and is fortunate enough to get a job coaching the youth/reserves(one of those). Inevitably does well as Barcelona are going to have the pick of the players, he then gets the first team job. Again Barcelona will of either had some world class players or access to buy the best up and coming talents. So what if his team played really nice football, he has some of the best players in the world and yet people lap it up like he is some sort of footballing god.

Now, I am just using him as an example but it just seems so bizarre to me when people place so much emphasis on managers like they have some huge impact on teams. Any one else feel the same?

Rroff · 12 Oct 2017 at 10:15

Yes they do - some managers for instance will spend hours pouring over say the opposition's goalies and what their weaknesses are and try and build tactics and get in players who can expose that with their particular style and so on.

Bassmansam · 12 Oct 2017 at 10:18

Rroff said:
Yes they do - some managers for instance will spend hours pouring over say the opposition's goalies and what their weaknesses are and try and build tactics and get in players who can expose that with their particular style and so on.

Ok so why don’t one of these “great” managers go and prove themselves by winning the league with someone like Leicester, Stoke ect?

Rroff · 12 Oct 2017 at 10:28

Bassmansam said:
Ok so why don’t one of these “great” managers go and prove themselves by winning the league with someone like Leicester, Stoke ect?

IMO they should have to put in atleast a year with a lower league team - will be interesting to me to see what/if anything comes of Harry Redknapp and Yeovil Town.

Yeah it is easier for a poor manager to do OK with a great selection of players and likewise there is only so much a great manager can do with a poor selection of players but in between that there is a lot of room for managers to really make their mark.

MissChief · 12 Oct 2017 at 11:19

The issue I have with Pep is that he's gone into teams with stacks of cash and has spent millions on players. City spent more this year on their defence than some EU countries military budgets! He's never had to manage and coach lesser players into performing well or managed to make a team of good but not great players better than the sum of its parts. Until he is forced to manage a team without as good as limitless pockets of cash he will never be a great manager, merely a good one.

Bassmansam · 12 Oct 2017 at 11:22

I think really a “good manager” is a product of having good resources/players available.

Maundie · 12 Oct 2017 at 13:50

Apparently Man U are looking to offer Jose a £65m 5 year contract so they must think he's worth it (judging by the last 2 managers results they would be right as well)

Shamikebab · 12 Oct 2017 at 15:33

Bassmansam said:
Ok so why don’t one of these “great” managers go and prove themselves by winning the league with someone like Leicester, Stoke ect?

What is in it for them? Greater risk, less pay. Sounds like a dumb career move to me.

The biggest evidence for quality of manager is look what Fergie did with a team that 3 months later Moyes turned into a mid table side.

Bassmansam · 12 Oct 2017 at 15:35

Shamikebab said:
What is in it for them? Greater risk, less pay. Sounds like a dumb career move to me.

The biggest evidence for quality of manager is look what Fergie did with a team that 3 months later Moyes turned into a mid table side.

Well that's what my argument is.. , "good manager"= good players.

Shamikebab · 12 Oct 2017 at 16:00

Bassmansam said:
Well that's what my argument is.. , "good manager"= good players.

But then Moyes would have done fine? Same players, same "good" manager. Except he didn't.

DarkHorizon472 · 12 Oct 2017 at 16:15

The answer is yes but the need time and resources to make a proper impact. Man Utd were on the verge of sacking Ferguson early in his time there.

Bassmansam · 12 Oct 2017 at 16:17

DarkHorizon472 said:
The answer is yes but the need time and resources to make a proper impact. Man Utd were on the verge of sacking Ferguson early in his time there.

But it would be inevitable that anyone with time and enough resources will eventually be successful.

nicktay2605 · 12 Oct 2017 at 16:20

Managers can make a huge difference imo. Look at teams that overachieve given their budget and the squad that they have. Of the current premier league managers I think Eddie Howe, Tony Pulis, Marco Silva and Rafa Benitez are all examples of managers making a difference. Bournemouth probably wouldn't be in PL without Eddie Howe, and the other three would struggle to compete without their respective managers. Sure, some managers spend a lot of money to be successful, but I still believe they are excellent managers. Imo part of being a good manager is identifying the weaknesses in your squad and having an idea of who you want to sign to fix it.

Also, if there was ever an example of a manager making a difference it would be SAF. Yes he spent quite a bit of money for his time, but in the latter years he had less money than Chelsea and City and also had to contend with European powerhouses like Real Madrid and Barcelona, yet United continued to be very successful. Some of the performances he got from what might be considered average players by United's standards was incredible.

MissChief · 12 Oct 2017 at 17:30

nicktay2605 said:
Managers can make a huge difference imo. Look at teams that overachieve given their budget and the squad that they have. Of the current premier league managers I think Eddie Howe, Tony Pulis, Marco Silva and Rafa Benitez are all examples of managers making a difference. Bournemouth probably wouldn't be in PL without Eddie Howe, and the other three would struggle to compete without their respective managers. Sure, some managers spend a lot of money to be successful, but I still believe they are excellent managers. Imo part of being a good manager is identifying the weaknesses in your squad and having an idea of who you want to sign to fix it.

Also, if there was ever an example of a manager making a difference it would be SAF. Yes he spent quite a bit of money for his time, but in the latter years he had less money than Chelsea and City and also had to contend with European powerhouses like Real Madrid and Barcelona, yet United continued to be very successful. Some of the performances he got from what might be considered average players by United's standards was incredible.

He was very good at getting good players giving everything for him and the team. Big Sam was like that at Bolton too. That's why I'm not sure about Pep. Rather than try and get some of the lesser players playing better he'll just sign someone better because he can.

Bassmansam · 12 Oct 2017 at 17:32

nicktay2605 said:
Managers can make a huge difference imo. Look at teams that overachieve given their budget and the squad that they have. Of the current premier league managers I think Eddie Howe, Tony Pulis, Marco Silva and Rafa Benitez are all examples of managers making a difference. Bournemouth probably wouldn't be in PL without Eddie Howe, and the other three would struggle to compete without their respective managers. Sure, some managers spend a lot of money to be successful, but I still believe they are excellent managers. Imo part of being a good manager is identifying the weaknesses in your squad and having an idea of who you want to sign to fix it.

Also, if there was ever an example of a manager making a difference it would be SAF. Yes he spent quite a bit of money for his time, but in the latter years he had less money than Chelsea and City and also had to contend with European powerhouses like Real Madrid and Barcelona, yet United continued to be very successful. Some of the performances he got from what might be considered average players by United's standards was incredible.

Man Utd lost the champions league final to Barcelona when Ferguson was in charge, what’s the excuse there then ?

dannyjo22 · 12 Oct 2017 at 18:20

Shamikebab said:
The biggest evidence for quality of manager is look what Fergie did with a team that 3 months later Moyes turned into a mid table side.

If it was that simple raneri wouldn't have been given the sack after winning the league. Or Jose at Chelsea.

Aneskimo · 12 Oct 2017 at 21:08

Some managers just have that bit more about them, attention to detail, tactics, the way they speak/treat players, nurture youth, some have a win at all costs , using sports science, usually these are the sort that rise to the top of management

Edit: some have success due to changing it up like fergie did with assistant managers

DarkHorizon472 · 12 Oct 2017 at 21:31

Bassmansam said:
But it would be inevitable that anyone with time and enough resources will eventually be successful.

To give a real example not in Football. I took over a function that was failing to deliver on all measures. Within 3 months it was working as intended and after months of further improvement it was working better than intended.

The previous two managers had both failed to make it work for a variety of reasons which are not important. It is very likely no matter how much time and even additional resources they would still have not been able to get to where it needed to be.

A good manager is often missed more when they leave an area than when they are in place. My guess is Arsenal will like Man Utd will find this when eventually trying to replace their manager.

Trusty · 13 Oct 2017 at 01:48

Depends at what level the club is at, a good manager at a club with poor players can make huge differences, a good manager at a top club with top players, the line get's a little bit blurry, they obviously have a huge impact but at the very top, but the players themselves make a far larger difference.

Mentality, guidelines, player functions and player quality are the biggest factors, a manager can influence mentality and guidelines quite easily, player functions a little bit but they are at the mercy of player quality, player quality is largely influenced by time and money.

FrankJH · 13 Oct 2017 at 04:49

Bassmansam said:
But it would be inevitable that anyone with time and enough resources will eventually be successful.

thats the biggest change in the last 20-30 years - managers DONT get the time any more, thats too much of a luxury / risk

I think its a bit harsh to say that at the very top its more down to the players - some managers want maybe even "need" to play different tactics and if the players dont suit those tactics then its never going to work out quickly (the manager wont be used to playing with tactics players are used to and vice versa)

Also the leagues in different countries need to be adapted to and that takes time more than anything, you can watch (even in the stadia in question) a team live but there is no replacement for being that man on the touchline yourslef even with years of experience behind you - and even changing top teams in the same league, there are such small differences in games between a lot of clubs that even a team on paper far better than most doesnt mean squat over a whole season

a lot of experience with that particular team and a decent length of time is always going to be required with a change in manager