Does austerity work

So you supported Vince cable as Chancellor over Osborne? Cable certainly expressed concerns about the banking sector in parliament (unlike Osborne) before the "innovative banking" problems and actually has some qualifications in the field.

The damage was done before Osborne or cable had a chance, it was Gordon Brown who broke the banking regulation system and ran a deficit during the boom...

You may not like it, but Osborne succeeded in taking more from the rich than his predecessors, despite reducing headline rates, and implemented stronger banking regulations than those before him. He wasn't the problem.

I also struggle with cable because of his attitude to property rights as expressed through his determination to use the tax system to target people rather than to fund the state.

People of your position, now talking of the problems of 'Discovering Keynes' in mainstream politics and economics are something of a joke.
It was literally Thatcherism that dumped Keynes approach in 79, which continued on and on, by an ever further, step-wise to the right position, favouring letting the market decide all spheres of life. This ran through to it's inevitable idiocy in nearly entirely destroying the infrastructure of capitalism itself.

Now people like you say, reversing Austerity in Portugal and the following Economic benefits are proof that we haven't had enough Austerity and I used to like household analogies but I'm alright now?

As he says in the movie, in ancient times when men had failed so utterly, they fell on their swords!

What Thatcher did in the 80s was far closer to what Portugal did than what we did...
 
It's an interesting question although I'm not aware that Keynes advised specific levels of investment and as with all investment how it is spent likely matters. However to the notion of pure Austerity Time said this of Keynes in 1999!



But we let people continue household analogies, select bullingdon boys with zero experience over published professionals and free market banking advocates keep a hand at the wheel having crashed the ship!

Do you think the UK was keynsian during the period from the end of ww2 to the rise of Thatcher?
 
The damage was done before Osborne or cable had a chance, it was Gordon Brown who broke the banking regulation system and ran a deficit during the boom...

You may not like it, but Osborne succeeded in taking more from the rich than his predecessors, despite reducing headline rates, and implemented stronger banking regulations than those before him. He wasn't the problem.

I also struggle with cable because of his attitude to property rights as expressed through his determination to use the tax system to target people rather than to fund the state.



What Thatcher did in the 80s was far closer to what Portugal did than what we did...
If you use household analogies and can't accept Thatcherism dumped Keyne's for Friedman and the approach that led to Greenspan and "innovative banking" you struggle with economics, evidence and have belief of a zealot!

Anyone picking Osborne's data entry for the NHS C.V. over the Shell chief economist, advisor to kenyan government, lecture at Glasgow, published politician who voiced concerns over the regulation that cost us a generation of debt, whilst his rival cheered on the changes, is the sort of person who makes household analogies and uses their gut / pushes ideological 'belief' in the face of evidence!
 
If you use household analogies and can't accept Thatcherism dumped Keyne's for Friedman and the approach that led to Greenspan and "innovative banking" you struggle with economics, evidence and have belief of a zealot!

Anyone picking Osborne's data entry for the NHS C.V. over the Shell chief economist, advisor to kenyan government, lecture at Glasgow, published politician who voiced concerns over the regulation that cost us a generation of debt, whilst his rival cheered on the changes, is the sort of person who makes household analogies and uses their gut / pushes ideological 'belief' in the face of evidence!

How does that address any part of the post you quoted?
 
Household analogies I have heard used in this thread: 0.
Casino analogies I have heard used in this thread: 1.
Complaints by Stewski about people using household analogies: 12+
 
How does that address any part of the post you quoted?
Let's start with your problems with cable over someone with literally no qualifications!

Household analogies I have heard used in this thread: 0.
Casino analogies I have heard used in this thread: 1.
Complaints by Stewski about people using household analogies: 12+
Hahaha, we've only had them for the last 10 years and now it becomes apparent they are idiotic, the idiots that used them distance themselves, whilst making the exact same failed arguments!
 
Let's start with your problems with cable over someone with literally no qualifications!

Disliking cables position isn't an implicit agreement with Osborne. Someone like Friedman would be way more qualified than cable, but I doubt (if he was still alive) you would take him over cable.

This is essentially an appeal to qualification fallacy, where you are pushing the qualifications of someone as opposed to their position, as if the two are intrinsically related. Qualification or experience in economics doesn't lead directly to cables position on how to run an economy.

Gordon Brown also had no relevant qualifications or experience.

Hahaha, we've only had them for the last 10 years and now it becomes apparent they are idiotic, the idiots that used them distance themselves, whilst making the exact same failed arguments!

You are using them as a strawman, rather than actually addressing the discussion points made.
 
Do you think the UK was keynsian during the period from the end of ww2 to the rise of Thatcher?
Firstly my life started in 72 I wasnt a keynsian baby, I can go off wikipedia which suggest nearly all developed countries were influenced by Keynes and that broadly thatcher and Friedman moved the west away from the approach!

I'm mindful that many economic measures relating to employment and performance have changed from WWII to now however, wise inward investment during harsh economic times (now and then) has good evidence to support it's benefit!
 
I honestly don't know, I just keep my head down pay all my bills and work hard. Go for a pint aftwards and wait for it all to blow over. It's a simple way of looking at things but I have always been a simple-minded man.
 
Disliking cables position isn't an implicit agreement with Osborne. Someone like Friedman would be way more qualified than cable, but I doubt (if he was still alive) you would take him over cable.

This is essentially an appeal to qualification fallacy, where you are pushing the qualifications of someone as opposed to their position, as if the two are intrinsically related. Qualification or experience in economics doesn't lead directly to cables position on how to run an economy.

Gordon Brown also had no relevant qualifications or experience.



You are using them as a strawman, rather than actually addressing the discussion points made.
except cable stood in parliament and warned of the exact regulation you say you were opposed to whilst osborne cheered it on!
That regulation likely cost us a generation of debt, yet you as an idealogical zealot would mumble about some minor point! Frankly friedman is likely the reason such regulation became dominant under greenspan et al!

Why not hire a binman as the chancellor!
 
I'll try a trite analogy of my own: Pilot who literally ditches a plane killing all the passengers; crawls out of the wreckage and asks who want to go for a trip!
These people need to take their hands off the stick and soon!
 
I honestly don't know, I just keep my head down pay all my bills and work hard. Go for a pint aftwards and wait for it all to blow over. It's a simple way of looking at things but I have always been a simple-minded man.
Its not simple its pretty much ALL everyone can do except vote for a different moron(s) to try every 4 years.



I missed the word vote..... Lol
But you understand
 
Last edited:
Its not simple its pretty much ALL everyone can do except for a different moron(s) to try every 4 years.
Agreed, but let's pick some moron with some vague notion of economic thinking and a history of being correct, over someone the PM smashed up the odd restaurant with at Uni, next time!
 
Firstly my life started in 72 I wasnt a keynsian baby, I can go off wikipedia which suggest nearly all developed countries were influenced by Keynes and that broadly thatcher and Friedman moved the west away from the approach!

I'm mindful that many economic measures relating to employment and performance have changed from WWII to now however, wise inward investment during harsh economic times (now and then) has good evidence to support it's benefit!

Do you think we should rebalance state spending to spend more on investment and less of welfare and similar day to day activities?

Here is some history to give you an idea of how spending has changed over time.

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/past_spending

Total spending as a percentage of gdp hasn't risen for reference.

except cable stood in parliament and warned of the exact regulation you say you were opposed to whilst osborne cheered it on!
That regulation likely cost us a generation of debt, yet you as an idealogical zealot would mumble about some minor point! Frankly friedman is likely the reason such regulation became dominant under greenspan et al!

Why not hire a binman as the chancellor!

Being right on a single issue (although Osborne didn't cheer on the changes of Brown, that suggests he would have done the same, and that isn't the case) doesn't make him a better choice overall. Lots of politicians of all parties can be correct on single issues, but it doesn't follow they are correct in all their views.

Which regulation change, specifically, do you think caused the UK public spending crisis?
 
Do you think we should rebalance state spending to spend more on investment and less of welfare and similar day to day activities?

Here is some history to give you an idea of how spending has changed over time.

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/past_spending

Total spending as a percentage of gdp hasn't risen for reference.

Not sure what you mean by the bold statement above? See graph below from that source.


ukgs_chart2p21.png


I'm not sure that you can easily separate "investment", "welfare" and "Day to day" as your statement implies.
If you are asking should we continue to cut state workers such as police/health/fire etc for supposed (but not materialised) gains I can't see that as a likely wise decision.
My broad understanding of keynes contribution was to consider the value of a mixed economy which involves state investment / stimulation for private investment.
As time magazine points out this may include money the state doesn't currently have. Obviously wasted money is wasted money, another 12Bil for an NHS patient record built by private companies for a state system is not likely desirable, years late, seemingly no clause in contracts for over budget and deadline, no recourse to those in government or business making the deal, unlikely it was wise.

Being right on a single issue (although Osborne didn't cheer on the changes of Brown, that suggests he would have done the same, and that isn't the case) doesn't make him a better choice overall. Lots of politicians of all parties can be correct on single issues, but it doesn't follow they are correct in all their views.

In view of the magnitude of the issue (notwithstanding huge disparities in the CVs of the 2 at the time) it seems a bit odd to take this position.
I don't think Cable a saint or prophet or even strongly aligned with my political thoughts, he was/is likely to the right of the Lib Dems, he had the good sense and education/experience to see how far we had moved away from Keynes (including in his own opinions actions before the crisis) and suggest we re read some recent history right around the time of the crisis.

Which regulation change, specifically, do you think caused the UK public spending crisis?
I'm not convinced a single change in a single country gave us "innovative banking" complete with fake "good" debt. On a small scale I (and others) observed the change as my partner worked for an international bank. Her section was not sales orientated, but much of the language and behaviour became "product", mostly focused on debt, bonuses given to individual sales people before and without thought of the probability of repayment, with virtually zero external oversight.

Though ahead of the curve on the risk of such economies, I wouldn't be surprised if Cable favoured "light touch" regulation too (until the crisis where unlike Osborne he waded in on banking). After Thatcher and Regan moved us away from Keynes to Friedman, we ended up where even the supposed "new" Labour party were following Alan Greenspan and laissez faire economics. Hopefully we've all learnt the lesson that the market doesn't always decide for the better of all, actually in many areas, the less regulation the more we live in something like a jungle.

Those people and the thinking that took us to that point, should no longer be involved in shaping our future!

Google says these are quotes from Keynes:
In the long run we are all dead.

The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones.

The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.

Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking.

Education: the inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indifferent by the incompetent.

By a continuing process of inflation, government can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens.

Ideas shape the course of history.

The avoidance of taxes is the only intellectual pursuit that still carries any reward.

If economists could manage to get themselves thought of as humble, competent people on a level with dentists, that would be splendid.

By the way I'm not saying Follow Keynes and we'll all live happily ever after. At least now we can start to discuss the proven value of investment and the limits of cuts when considering the performance of the economy!
 
Its not simple its pretty much ALL everyone can do except vote for a different moron(s) to try every 4 years.



I missed the word vote..... Lol
But you understand

Yeah, I got you the first time :) It's unfortunate how in the grand scheme of things we are powerless as individuals to change things for the better, we can only help ourselves through saving and prudence
 
Back
Top Bottom