Poll: Does David Moyes need to go? Part 2 - New Poll **Spoilers**

[Robbo]

Hopefully the mods will be kind enough to add a poll to this, and lock the previous thread so we can see what's changed.

Poll options same as before:

• Man Utd fan - Sack him
• Man Utd fan - Give him more time
• Rival supporter - Sack him, wrong man
• Rival supporter - Keep him, genius at work
• Neutral supporter - Sack him, wrong man
• Neutral supporter - Needs more time

Moyes related discussion can continue in here!

I personally think we've seen nothing to suggest he's the right man, and he definitely appears to have lost the dressing room, if he ever had it to start with. I don't care about winning trophies, but I do care about his attitude, mentality and style of play. Almost everything he's done so far has been a disaster.

Why put our club at the mercy of this man? His credentials are non-existent. It's madness.

 

[Robbo]

Thanks Johnny!

 

[Robbo]

United fan - needs more time.

Elaborate!

Purdy!

The cheeky...!

 

[Robbo]

Just a little perspective.

Yes Moyes has done badly, there is no excusing that - however;

Much of this is true Frank and it's not fair to put all of the blame on Moyes, but this season was his chance to show he's got something about him and can rebuild/freshen up the squad. He's done nothing to show that. It's quite the opposite really, he's shown himself to be totally inept. Poor attitude, poor tactics, poor everything. For lack of a better word he's a loser, plain and simple.

The two high points have been Januzaj playing well, and signing Mata. Neither of those, I believe, are directly down to him and his vision or personality.

As for the team, yes, it's weak in places and there has likely been a decline in ability (though you can't say for sure as any team totally robbed of confidence plays badly). The decline has been massive, winning the league by a large margin to 7th is shocking. A few months before Moyes was at the helm, we gave Real Madrid a real game of it over 2 legs, on top of cruising to the title. It doesn't all go down the pan overnight. There is fight in the squad, as well as quality and experience, but he's ruined it.

 

[Robbo]

Some people are forgetting the results we have had.

5-0 against Leverkusen who where at the time flying in the Bundesliga and unbeaten at home for something like 10 games?

The result we got from arsenal, 1-0 when arsenal were flying.

There have been glimpses.

I think his biggest task is overcoming some of the egos in the side and having the balls to drop someone like RVP or Rooney or force rooney to play in midfield for a few games to help he team out.

Leverkusen have been atrocious in Europe, not just against us. No idea why.

Arsenal just bottled it as usual and were terrible, so we won, with a set piece no less.

 

[Robbo]

Of course it changes the fact, can you not see? it's all about confidence..

Where will that come from then? We have a manager who has no confidence in himself, and a squad who have no confidence in him. There's only one way this ends, bar a miracle.

It's quite clear to me at least that the players don't believe in him and think he's a bit of a joke. The same might be said of his coaching staff.

Couple of Guardian articles on that:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/mar/18/manchester-united-champions-league-olympiakos

http://www.theguardian.com/football...evra-david-moyes-manchester-united-olympiakos

 

[Robbo]

Well it won't come from you eh ..Jeez

No answer then? Can't answer what I said (because it's true)?

 

[Robbo]

What you talking about mate? I've said it a billion times. It's like hitting your head against a brick wall though.

You seem very keen to defend him but can't provide any reasons for doing so, then you just resort to calling people clueless, or whatever.

Out of interest, how many games you been to this year at OT?

What relevance does this have?

 

[Robbo]

Thing is I could have told you 3 years ago that Carrick and cleverly were no good. In fact I did often and got called a pessimist or worse by those blinkered by some wins.

Given that people are now saying to sell rvp too...how quickly and fickle you all remain. Wasn't there a guy on here with rvp in his signature? Lol. He was a fix to a problem we didn't have where money should have been invested elsewhere and more wisely. Sadly it was not. And now we are where we are.

RvP is a fabulous player, he's just not playing for Moyes, sadly. It's not all about pace as you seem to think.

As for the squad, yes, it isn't good enough, but it also has some strengths and Moyes can't get the best out of anyone. If it was really as bad as some people suggest, it wouldn't have done well last season, it doesn't go downhill overnight - but the manager can.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2584341/David-Moyes-banner-The-Chosen-One.html

Imagine if this gets ripped down!

 

[Robbo]

Phil McNulty ‏@philmcnulty
David Moyes mentions "importance of making time-wasting known to the officials" in programme notes. File that under "least of his worries."

 

[Robbo]

Because he was given time to adapt to the job and bring in the players he wanted over several years

He'd proven he had what it takes beforehand. Moyes hasn't.

 

[Robbo]

Even with all his experience, SAF failed a couple of times in the CL (most notably just a couple of years ago) , so "having what it takes" doesnt count for squat.

I dont see there being much of a difference between getting titles with Aberdeen in the 80's and doing what Moyes did at Everton in the last decade (considering the financial differences)

The CL is a notoriously difficult and random competition, Moyes isn't being judged on that. The fact we look garbage against any and all opposition is the main worry.

 

[Robbo]

What do I vote given my stance is:

Give him until the end of the season but bar any miracles, he needs to go.?

"Sack him" includes the end of the season, it's pretty unlikely that we'd sack him now.

 

[Robbo]

While it was nice to go through, we were somewhat fortunate last night. Olympiakos created better chances than us in open play, which was rather worrying.

I don't think this has much bearing on Moyes, other than the fact it could provide some sort of turning point and allow us to finish the season strongly. If we were able to beat West Ham and then Man City, that would give some real momentum and certainly help Moyes.

Carrick was almost absent, and he's meant to be the guy who does what Giggs ended up doing, playing important/defence splitting balls forward. Instead he's like a marginally better version of Cleverley.

I don't expect us to beat whoever we draw in the next round of the Champions League, as long as we give them a game of it, and show some fight. It's quite possible though, depending on the opponent, that we'll get slaughtered.

Does any of last night show Moyes is the right man to rebuild the team? Unfortunately not.

 

[Robbo]

It's a bit harsh to call for Moyes' head based purely on the result tonight, but we are absolutely dire in possession and going forward, it's actually shocking.

The man has no philosophy, and certainly can't coach players to defend either - not something I expected at all.

No doubt he'll say he was delighted because we passed the ball for a bit (in slow motion, no less).

 

[Robbo]

I can't fathom why any fan would support Moyes being kept around any longer if I'm honest. The Olympiacos and West Ham results were nothing to write home about and have incorrectly given people the belief that those games were a turning point. Olympiacos could have been a much different story had De Gea not bailed us out with some fantastic saves and West Hame are, well, West Ham.

Looking back at last season, there was certainly the indication that the squad needed fresh legs and there were key players in the squad getting past their prime, but the squad certainly wasn't four months away from implosion point. That's completely down to the manager.

The proof will be in the pudding, when Moyes has us finishing behind Everton despite having a superior squad. We've blew £64m on two players, one who isn't even worth the value of the paper his contract is written on and the other looks more out of place in the squad than a veggie at a rib joint.

I don't think anyone (bar Fergie) thought Moyes was the right man for the job, but hoped he'd grow into it and do a decent enough job. Sadly, some managers aren't cut out to handle the biggest clubs, and that seems to be the case with Moyes. I've no doubt he is a good manager, but he looks totally lost and as if he's got no belief in himself. A manager at the top level has to ooze confidence, Moyes has never done this, and now it's badly exposed.

What concerns me is that we've decided that Moyes is bigger than the club, he's essentially got immunity to a certain degree (at any other club he'd have been sacked). Now he's being trusted with spending upwards of £100m+ on players who will hopefully get us back in the top 4.

Then you have people who, as you mentioned, believe the squad isn't all that. They aren't entirely wrong, there are weaknesses in the squad but the squad also has enough quality to better the majority of teams at least in the league. The problem is, if you remove the confidence and drive from the players - as Moyes has done - things will look bleak. They've got no confidence and belief in the manager, before with SAF, things were very different.

 

[Robbo]

21 points also dont take into account the fact that Chelsea , City and Spurs have significantly strengthened in the intervening time and the core of Utd's squad have gone significantly down hill

Rivals have strengthened BUT the reason we've gone downhill is a mental thing as much as physical. The team looked bad just a few short months after winning the league and giving Real Madrid a game of it in the CL.

Then you have the fact that Moyes should clearly have seen these weaknesses (if they are so glaring) and gone after proper transfer targets. As everyone agrees, we don't need several £40m players to sort the squad out, one or two expensive players maybe but we should have a long list of targets who won't be hard to get and would improve the squad significantly.

We've got the same team as last season, and have added Chelsea's best player (the past 2 seasons) and a midfielder who caused us all sorts of problems whenever he played against us.

All roads lead to the manager...

 

[Robbo]

Just out of interest it would be interesting to hear how the fans would have reacted had Moyes given 6-7 "big" players the axe last summer without working with them first.

It would have certainly seemed cold to start with if nothing else.

I dont disagree that part of it is mental, but its also a lot easier for a younger player to get over a mental issue than one of Evra/ Rio/ Vidic's age as the latter dont have the same get up and go as they did 5 - 10 years ago. Also combine this wth their contracts ending they just havent shown up as much as in previous years

It also appears from this post that you dont think the problems are so glaring which is surprising to say the least.

I think there are some glaring problems, but our strongest 11 at the start of the season could have got 3rd/4th spot quite easily, especially if we'd signed the right player or two.

I get the impression you think with a few Moyes signings, everything will be fine and dandy next year, I hope you're right, I'm certainly not confident at all. All I see from you is blind faith.

Are you happy that we've decided Moyes is bigger than the club? He's practically unsackable and is doing a terrible job. If he manages to spend £100m on entirely the wrong players, we could end up in a spot of bother.

edit apart from the away leg vs Oluympiakos Utd havent looked bad in europe (and that leg was down to the effort of the players 100% imo) so Im not sure comparing anything to the RM games last season really prove anything. Its the day to day / much faster/ heavier challanging games of the ePL etc that are showing the weaknesses

We've not really been tested in Europe though, have we? Leverkusen were utterly awful and most teams would have beaten them if they played like that.

We're due a proper European game next, so we'll see how that goes.

 

[Robbo]

Not blind faith, but I respect what Moyes did with Everton for season after season with very little money. Gill with Moyes for one season and I really think we would be much higher than we are now (as a few good, even if not massive , names would have arrived to bolster the squad)

I think he did well at Everton too, but that doesn't magically mean he can become one of the very best, in fact it's quite unlikely.

You are guessing he will go for the "wrong" players - at this point thats rather unfair. Mata should be at the core of DM 's 1st real team and there is a ? over how much Utd actually paid for MF, even if the latter does look as though it was a disaster. SAF wasnt exactly immune to buying the wrong players now was he? lol

Well, based on the evidence so far he's either signed nobody when we needed someone, paid £27m for Fellaini, and £37m for Mata, the latter of which he doesn't know how to use. It's certainly a big concern. It's pretty clear we did pay £27m for Fellaini, and that's that.

I hope Moyes is given time and some on here will have to eat their words (and if it doesnt work then I will happily eat mine). You have just proven that managers need time, it doesnt always click just like that.

I think you're just playing devils advocate to some degree here. Moyes did quite well at Everton, or not that well, if they come 4th this season. Therefore he's the man to take control of one of the biggest clubs in the world, despite everything so far showing he's completely inept?!

If we keep him, and next season he gets us back in the top 4 and everything looks good - fantastic - I'll be happy, but so far we look a real mess and much of it is down to his poor management.

You've got no real reason to stand by him after what he's done so far, and there are plenty of reasons to ask questions, yet you're determined to shift the blame. Just because in the unlikely event he comes good, you can say I told you so?

 

[Robbo]

Why is Everton in the current climate competing admirably with the top 4 in these very financial based times (with some good cup runs) any different from taking Aberdeen to the title in 85/86?

I see a difference there.

Do you know how unlikely it is that Moyes will be SAF mk2? It's close to impossible.

Actually no it isnt - 1stly headline writers say anything they want whether its including 4 years worth of wages in a deal to make a bigger number, including add-ons which might not be payable for years etc etc etc even without considering that a few Everton fans earlier this season on here were saying it was only £15m upfront.

So "a few Everton fans" are spot on then instead?!

I honestly dont care about "I told you so" , but for the longest time the club have always said "we believe in standing by our manager in the long term and disagree with majority of other clubs looking for instant success" which was said well before SAF retired many times.

I agree with this philosophy , he needs a lot more time than 1 season . I can understand some clubs cant afford the luxury but at the end of the day the one thing that Utd CAN afford is the time to give him at least until next Christmas.

IF SAF had at least done something with the midfield then fair enough, but his carp about "no value in the market" was exactly that. Carp.

If (or according to you lot "when") the club sack him and appoint someone else and they get instant success (or even top three /four initially) then I will happily eat my words

So in short it's the old "SAF said to stand by him and I'm worried about looking like a bad fan" excuse.

He's done a terrible job so far. Why should we just sit in silence and put up with it? I'm all for giving someone time but this is just dreadful.

What good is giving him until Christmas? Who can we replace him with then? He'll have to get all of next season as well, and where is the evidence he deserves that?

"Time" is just a word. You can't just hide behind that and pretend everything will magically get better. Zero evidence so far.

Look at what Martinez is doing with Everton and make whatever comparisons you like. End of discussion really, right there.