Don't Pay UK

[dowie]

This campaign seems to have trended today (in part as a result of BP posting record profits):

Don't Pay

A thousand new beginnings

dontpay.uk

It seems to be a bit like those occasional facebook posts which would pop up claiming that if everyone decides to not buy petrol on some particular day then magically fuel will become more affordable.

It's not quite clear what the people behind this current campaign expect to happen - some pressure on the government re: the price cap? Various energy companies have already gone bankrupt so there isn't exactly much wriggle room there, it's not sustainable to sell to consumers at a loss.

Do they want action from the government to help people with bills? We've had the rebate on council tax and the fuel duty cut, perhaps the government could fund some more gestures like that but that isn't going to change the reality that energy is getting more expensive right now, it's just going to provide a little bit of help.

This could potentially affect people quite badly, firstly with bills increasing and plenty of people not exactly great with money as it is then not paying can lead to some substantial arrears, I doubt very much that most of the people who decide to take part in a bill strike will be diligently putting aside and not touching the money they would have otherwise paid their bills with.

This sort of thing could lead to bad credit, referral to debt collection agencies/CCJs etc. and indeed getting put onto a pre-payment meter.

 

[dowie]

How does one make record profits if not sold at a profit?

Serious question BP must be making masssive amounts of cash somewhere down the line?

I think people are conflating different things, BP is a massive global company engaged in oil and gas exploration, refining, trading etc.

That they've made massive profits doesn't mean that the company supplying your energy is making massive profits nor negate that energy, fule etc.. has increased in price, again plenty of energy companies have gone bust!

 

[dowie]

It easy though really. We have governments that are supposed to be running things around the world. If the US, G7 and the others nations sat around the table and said right market price is now set at xyz until things stabilise . Bush bosh bash problem solved.

How? Are you just going to ask Russia nicely to stop invading Ukraine? Are we just going to tell the Saudis and UAE and Nigeria that westerners in rich countries are getting angry at their bills for fuel and electricity etc.. so can they take less money?

Why should they get less money - why, for example, do you deserve more money in your pocket than some people in Nigeria? Just because you don't like the price of something going up a bit and think that they should get less than you?

Do we know where the profits are being made?

In BPs case it's largely from their trading arm and from profits made refining oil.

 

[dowie]

People have mentioned though that since the gas would be extracted by a private company,it would just be sold on the open market anyway and wouldn't bring the cost of gas (and thus electricity generated by gas) down for us anyway.

That seems dubious, if you've got a greater supply of oil and gas from say shale oil, fracking etc.. then the reduced or unreliable supplies from elsewhere are a bit less of an issue.

 

[dowie]

We have people continuing to profiteer year on year out they need to take a hit for once.

They are though, the UK government has already imposed a windfall tax on profits made in the UK. It doesn't change the reality that energy now costs more and people have to pay for things... not paying bills doesn't seem like a good way to deal with that, some could end up on pre-payment meters as a result.

You seem to be ignoring reality here, various energy companies have already gone bust in the UK they literally have taken a hit, there is a price cap in place and this protest movement aims to call some sort of bill strike if it is adjusted upwards yet it pretty much needs to else supplying electricity and gas isn't going to be economically feasible.

 

[dowie]

Well this threads a train wreck much like the campaign itself.

Just lots of emotional arguments re: paying too much etc.. with little thought to reality or how they're going to get a big discount etc.

It's like the bloke in Nottingham who seemingly refused to shift to a repayment mortgage, carried on paying interest only and then declared that the bank had been paid "enough" and got caught up in a load of freeman of the land nonsense... of course some people rallied around him, how dare the evil banks repossess his home, he's paid "enough" then reality sunk in, it turned out that not repaying all the capital -> your home gets repossessed + presumably a load of additional court costs, charges for bailiffs and the home being sold at auction for presumably a sub-optimal price too.

The guy that could have perhaps made repayments years earlier or indeed rectified his situation by selling the home and using the equity he did have to downsize has ended up with far far less.

I'd be concerned that this campaign could backfire in similar ways for people who don't pay their bills, it's one thing to put the money aside and cancel the direct debit then pay late as some sort of ineffectual protest it's another thing to not pay, let the outstanding bill pile up and then trash your credit rating, end up with bailiffs and/or a pre-payment meter installed etc... this also screws them over in future as they're no longer trusted by creditors... your bills can act as a line of credit in the short term, having access to credit cards and using them sensibly is another useful tool, especially with the availability of transfers, interest-free periods for a couple of years etc. people actively not paying will sabotage access to that and if they end up with a pre-payment meter then they won't have any option but to pay up front.

 

[dowie]

If everyone didn't spend money on certain services, like petrol, or going to a particular superstore, for 1 day, it would put a dent in the business spreadsheet.

The mere threat that people can all get together and do something at the same time is what the big boys fear.

Doubt it, if people were still consuming the same amount of fuel then they'd just end up with more being spent in the days immediately prior to or after.

If everyone were to collectively buy less fuel, use less energy over an extended period of time then of course demand would come down as would bills both from decreased use + lower prices per unit of energy/fuel.

 

[dowie]

sadly it is too far from where i live, but a mate of mine who lives in the North West and a garage near him continually sells fuel for less than the major sellers, at the moment over 20p less - or was a few weeks back I have not spoke with him about it for a while.. He claims even with that he still makes enough profit.

now either this guy is getting some black market fuel to sell, or the other 95% of fuel stations are making a disgraceful profit.

Or it's not quite the full story perhaps? Like re: that big difference in price is this guy adjusting quickly after wholesale price changes etc. if he happens to have needed to resupply after a drop and adjusts quickly whereas some franchise station is selling some other batch of fuel at a higher price and might adjust downwards in a few days then perhaps that's your big difference? One guy I used to work with owned some petrol stations as a side hustle, he used to say there wasn't much profit from the fuel itself but rather it's more like a good sales funnel for the shop.

That sort of stuff does drive these campaigns, reports of big profits and everyone thinks their high bills are the reason etc..

A boycott happens if one company is targetted. So lets say Tesco. If everyone stopped shopping and buying petrol at Tesco for even a day, or longer, then it would effect that company.

Sure if you're buying food and petrol still but just not buying it at Tesco then they lose a day's profits... what exactly does that achieve?

The silly facebook campaigns have been more along the lines of campaigning for people to not buy fuel on a particular day - even if you did get everyone to do it whats the point? So long as people are still using their cars then they'll just fill up on other days, they're still buying the same amount of fuel across several days, it just means more customers on the days before and/or after the fuel strike day.

If people doubt that this non-payment tactic can work, then look up the poll tax riots, which eventually contributed to the fall of the Thatcher government.

But that's the government and they can just write it off... an energy company can install a pre-payment meter, not allow you to switch because you have an outstanding debt etc..

 

[dowie]

Reasonable as on more likely to actually do something.

Do what exactly? Magically make wholesale prices go down?

I mean supposing a few people did manage to force a write-off for a few people who have some sort of complaint that plausibly could cause the ombudsman to side with them then that doesn't do anything to change the reality of prices going up in general. Those people, save for their complaint or some temporary compensation or write off of some bill, still need to budget going forwards for further electricity usage... if they've ran into trouble already they either need to reduce consumption or budget better or they're going to run into trouble again.

I guess they're still pushing the adoption of smart meters but I suspect that in the future they might well be used to disconnect people remotely or switch to pre-payment meters without an engineer even needing to visit the property.

 

[dowie]

You do know the government set regulation in place that energy suppliers have to buy electric and gas 12 months in advance if they are over a certain customer base to ensure supply so the energy suppliers are having to buy overpriced energy in the current market from the generators/ energy resources extractors.......

Too many people in these energy threads talking about things they dont understand or are misinformed on

That seems a bit iffy, what regs are you referring to? Like demand varies so they obvs can't buy all that they supply 12 months in advance for a start, I guess they could estimate a large portion of it. It doesn't sound quite right though.

 

[dowie]

Something not quite right if this is being allowed to happen

How Sweden has profited from selling Norwegian energy back to Norway​

Sweden has turned a profit buying cheap Norwegian power from the country's north and then exporting it back to southern Norway where prices are higher.

Perhaps the north uses its own supply yet the south has to import at record, rip-off prices due to the lack of infrastructure?

Why shouldn't people in southern Norway benefit from cheaper electricity/more competition from Sweden re-exporting electricity to them?