Drilling out wheel bolts

[PlacidCasual]

@no idea what Colour me surprised, my wheels are copper slipped both on hubs and threads. When we bolt together high temperature valves and low temperature ones we uses the appropriate anti sieze compound such as copper slip (low temp) and moly coat (high temp) the torque setting is designed on the assumption that these are added to get the correct strain (elongation) to ensure the joint stays tight but that the fasters will release 4 years down the line. Not having it goes against my engineering instincts hence my question "was it not normal?". It seems my local company is unusual in adding anti-sieze compund.

 

[NoNameNoNumber]

Pretty much every car I have ever worked on explicitly says not to grease the bolts.

I know... I'm just explaining what a lubricant does to tightening torques and how bolts fundamentally work.

 

[andy_mk3]

@no idea what Colour me surprised, my wheels are copper slipped both on hubs and threads. When we bolt together high temperature valves and low temperature ones we uses the appropriate anti sieze compound such as copper slip (low temp) and moly coat (high temp) the torque setting is designed on the assumption that these are added to get the correct strain (elongation) to ensure the joint stays tight but that the fasters will release 4 years down the line. Not having it goes against my engineering instincts hence my question "was it not normal?". It seems my local company is unusual in adding anti-sieze compund.

Yes it does go against most things! I guess it's just calculated from a dry fit. And to be honest I've never come across a seized wheel bolt that's not been lubricated. I have a pet hate for wheel bolts covered in any kind of grease, above all for the fact that it gets everywhere when working on it lol.

I know... I'm just explaining what a lubricant does to tightening torques and how bolts fundamentally work.

Apologies I misinterpreted what you were saying. Long day

 

[Doobedoo]

I have had this happen to me before. Garage broke my locking wheel nut key blaming the bolts being on too tight.

I ended up trying to weld a bolt to it which failed then broke a socket trying to hammer it on but ended up succeeding using some of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irwin-Bolt-Grip-Remover-394001/dp/B0000CCXVZ.

I think the heat from my attempt at welding also helped but those Irwin bolt grippers are fantastic.

Seems this guy had done the same.

This expansion set came came in handy when the locking wheel nuts on my Lexus rusted on and the locking key rounded out. I did have to use a big hammer to drive the nut remover deep onto the frozen nut. The first one came off eventually then I broke my 3/8" 450mm powerbar trying to get the next one so that was enough for the day. They have an external hex so I will try with that when I get a chance.
So yes they grip very well. I only wish they made bigger sizes especially with 1/2" drive.

 

[NoNameNoNumber]

snip

Sounds as though we're from similar back grounds.

The issue with car manufacturers specifying lubed torques is that there's a huge variation in the stretch of a fastener depending on the exact spec of lube used.
If they said 100Nm lubed and Kwik fit used either no lube or a lesser quality lube, the fastener wouldn't be tight enough.
It's far easier to make the bolts as strong as hell and advise to fit them dry BUT they need checking a few miles down the road. Why? Well, when a fastener is torqued (dry), ~50% of the torque applied is lost as friction between the bolt/nut and the alloy wheel… only 10% actually makes it as far as stretching the fastener. The rest is friction in the threads and torsional stresses within the fastener. It's these that relax as you drive down the road, ergo they need retorque-ing.
If you apply copper slip and torque less, they don't come loose
How much less? Idk

 

[andy_mk3]

Sounds as though we're from similar back grounds.

The issue with car manufacturers specifying lubed torques is that there's a huge variation in the stretch of a fastener depending on the exact spec of lube used.
If they said 100Nm lubed and Kwik fit used either no lube or a lesser quality lube, the fastener wouldn't be tight enough.
It's far easier to make the bolts as strong as hell and advise to fit them dry BUT they need checking a few miles down the road. Why? Well, when a fastener is torqued (dry), ~50% of the torque applied is lost as friction between the bolt/nut and the alloy wheel… only 10% actually makes it as far as stretching the fastener. The rest is friction in the threads and torsional stresses within the fastener. It's these that relax as you drive down the road, ergo they need retorque-ing.
If you apply copper slip and torque less, they don't come loose
How much less? Idk

Gotta love some enginerding great explanation.

 

[Aspecto]

I've used this guy before;

http://www.thewheelnutman.co.uk/

Rounded locking wheel nut, tried everything to get it off and he did it in literally 20 seconds. Judging by some of the pictures on his facebook page he does stuff that people have made a huge mess of trying to get off.

 

[NoNameNoNumber]

Gotta love some enginerding great explanation.

Ha ha I love it. Nuts and bolts get me going
Kinda hoped you might disagree though.

 

[andy_mk3]

Ha ha I love it. Nuts and bolts get me going
Kinda hoped you might disagree though.

All that aside, it obviously works well enough, wheels coming off isn't a particularly common thing. I've seen more loose wheels caused by corrosion on the hub not allowing the wheel to sit flat on the hub than anything else.

 

[NoNameNoNumber]

All that aside, it obviously works well enough, wheels coming off isn't a particularly common thing. I've seen more loose wheels caused by corrosion on the hub not allowing the wheel to sit flat on the hub than anything else.

Yes very true, same with vibrations coming through the steering wheel or brake pedal because there crusty debris between the hub/disc/wheel.

 

[andy_mk3]

Yes very true, same with vibrations coming through the steering wheel or brake pedal because there crusty debris between the hub/disc/wheel.

Yup! Another one is people greasing the hub behind the brake disc, usually on top of rust for extra credit. Because that's how you're supposed to use machined surfaces. Then end up fitting 2 more sets of discs after it comes back for a "warped disc" lol.