Soldato
Just ban them.
They're just stupid gadgets that are trendy at the moment.
Nobody needs one.
They're just stupid gadgets that are trendy at the moment.
Nobody needs one.
Drones, overreaction or justified?
- Thread starter Screeeech
- Start date
Caporegime
Price and ease of use. Remote control helicopters and planes cost a wedge and are hard to fly well. Drones can be obtained by any cretin with a few hundred quid and the slightest bit of hand/eye coordination.
Soldato
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i'd dispute price, you can get sizable electric planes for sub £100, easily on a par with your average drone.
being hard to fly is absolutely my point, that difficulty level kept the idiots away from them, but as you say anybody can fly a drone.
Soldato
In you're opinion of course!
Drones are an exciting new technology with loads of potential new uses. There are lots of legitimate uses for them, photography being my use for mine, i can get some stunning footage that would never be possible without the use of a drone! Why ban them? They are no more dangerous than a car in the wrong hands, proof coming to light in the past couple of months! Should we ban them too? Maybe we should ban belts too?
Man of Honour
one idiot with a drone shouldn't mean they all get banned. Someone can run people over with a car, should we ban all cars?
Soldato
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invalid argument. last time I checked you needed an operating licence, a registered vehicle with mandatory testing for mechanical safety and minimum third party insurance to operate a car, none of these things are required to operate a drone.
also, if you tried to use a car to take out a plane full of people it'd be:
a. an impressive technical acheivement
b. easy to see coming
Soldato
It's not an invalid argument though, do you think some one intent of murdering people using a car as the weapon is going to give two hoots about obtaining a license to drive it? Also, you don't need to crash into a plane to commit mass murder, a busy shopping street can and has sufficed.
Soldato
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and this is where your argument falls down, these idiots interrupting air traffic aren't intentionally trying to kill people. of course anyone who's determined enough can kill a bunch of people with whatever they choose, like a knife or even their hands, should we ban hands?
Of course, although it can be hard coded into the gps/command module which would cover most drones people build.
It's never going to stop people purposely doing stupid things - just as the requirement for a driving licence doesn't stop people driving without a licence - but if hard coded no fly zones are sensible, proportionate and reasonable then you'll find people will either leave them on or install them on their custom machines because it helps make sure you adhere to the law.
It's not a silver bullet, like most things aren't.
Might as well ban cameras while you're at it. It would reduce the amount of revenge and child porn significantly. Nobody needs one.
Soldato
Because.... joy riders with no license have never killed anyone unintentionally? With or without a license accidents happen.
Soldato
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any time i hear joy riders crashing it's almost always just them getting themselves wrapped round a tree in the middle of nowhere.
Soldato
So they've never killed anyone? That's good to know. I was sure I'd heard they had.
Soldato
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Soldato
This thread is full of over reaction. Again, a lack of education in the matter at hand, same as the idiots that think it's cool to fly over people, property or near airports.
There is no need to ban drones. What's needed is education. Run a TV campaign in the middle of Jeremy Kyle or Corrie explaining the rules and the punishments for disobeying them. They aren't difficult to understand. A 30 second advert with a catchy slogan and everyone will know the law. Like "Clunk, Click, every trip" did for seat belts.
One of the worst examples of lunacy I've ever seen, was a supposedly well known photographer. He put a video on Youtube of him spooling up his new Inspire 1 on the pavement in the middle of central London, people walking within inches of it, then taking off and hovering above a busy junction. Idiots like that need the book throwing at them and making an example of all over the media.
While DJI are mostly to blame for the average Joe breaking the law in the past (by making them so easy to fly), they're also at the forefront of preventing idiots flying where they shouldn't.
Anyone not flying a consumer drone is probably going to have done their research, sought help (often through social media) and is far less likely to flout the law when they fly their new model.
I'm speaking here as someone that has flown RC helicopters for 8 years, RC planes for about 6 of those years, and I've flown many drones from self built tri-copters using gyros out of Wii Motion Plus controllers to modern FPV racing drones and DJI products.
There is no need to ban drones. What's needed is education. Run a TV campaign in the middle of Jeremy Kyle or Corrie explaining the rules and the punishments for disobeying them. They aren't difficult to understand. A 30 second advert with a catchy slogan and everyone will know the law. Like "Clunk, Click, every trip" did for seat belts.
One of the worst examples of lunacy I've ever seen, was a supposedly well known photographer. He put a video on Youtube of him spooling up his new Inspire 1 on the pavement in the middle of central London, people walking within inches of it, then taking off and hovering above a busy junction. Idiots like that need the book throwing at them and making an example of all over the media.
While DJI are mostly to blame for the average Joe breaking the law in the past (by making them so easy to fly), they're also at the forefront of preventing idiots flying where they shouldn't.
Anyone not flying a consumer drone is probably going to have done their research, sought help (often through social media) and is far less likely to flout the law when they fly their new model.
I'm speaking here as someone that has flown RC helicopters for 8 years, RC planes for about 6 of those years, and I've flown many drones from self built tri-copters using gyros out of Wii Motion Plus controllers to modern FPV racing drones and DJI products.
Caporegime
Over reaction much by some in here lol.
I got a pair of very bright leds for my mavic and they are bright. Reason I got them is because I'd rather be safe than sorry and if I'm up in the air then at least I'm visible if a plane/helicopter should pass by.
But as I said I'm not some sort of brainless idiot that just flies my drone anywhere I want to. I always take extra precautions when flying my drone and now with the bright leds it makes me just that bit safer.
If they decide to put a mandatory register in place then I've got absolutely no issues registering my drone on it.
I got a pair of very bright leds for my mavic and they are bright. Reason I got them is because I'd rather be safe than sorry and if I'm up in the air then at least I'm visible if a plane/helicopter should pass by.
But as I said I'm not some sort of brainless idiot that just flies my drone anywhere I want to. I always take extra precautions when flying my drone and now with the bright leds it makes me just that bit safer.
If they decide to put a mandatory register in place then I've got absolutely no issues registering my drone on it.
Caporegime
Finally managed to catch a nice sunset from my backyard earlier today.
Irony. Meet yas. Yas. Meet irony.
Not some sort of brainless idiot.
Soldato
When a previously "difficult to use" item, which tended to be used only by hobbyists, becomes so easy to use that any moron can do it you'll always have problems. Whether it's drones, or even the internet itself, once something is no longer difficult to use then the 1 brain cell morons get access and spoil it for everyone.
Associate
Interesting reading in this thread, with the opposing views. Here is my take...
I'm a pilot, I fly for a well known British airline where I regularly transport hundreds of people around Europe. I have one job to do, and that is to get them there safely, preferably on time, but always safely. We spend hours and hours going through different scenarios in simulators, practicing for as many eventualities as we can to ensure when things do go wrong, people get to go home that evening. However, drones are not a regular occurrence and are nearly impossible to predict. Are they a problem? Absolutely! It's very well accepted within our industry that a drone strike is not a "what if", more of a "when".
Let me get one fact out there before, I'm very pro-drone. I used to fly RC aircraft and helicopters as a serious hobby, drones are a natural evolution of that hobby and it's great to see people picking up anything that flies. I don't personally own a drone and would not spend thousands on a camera carrying done (I'm lucky enough to get these views as part of my job), but I do often fly around with my friends FPV racing drones and have a great time doing so.
The problem is multifaceted. There is the immediate threat, which is of course impact. Would a drone damage an aircraft? Well I'd say yes. A small drone wouldn't do much, but when you start approaching the size or weight of a DJI Phantom, then you will have problems. Let's put it this way, worst case scenario; a Phantom weighs 1.2kg or so is flying around at 3000ft on departure over a busy city, I've been cleared for high speed and am flying at 280kts with a nice 20kt tailwind. This works out to be around 360mph over the ground. Imagine the energy involved in this impact of my plane and this Phantom. Would it damage the windscreen, most likely, potentially hitting the crew. Would it take out an engine? Almost certainly. Could it damage the slat/flaps requiring you to land in a high-risk zero flap situation, again most likely. Is this an acceptable risk with so many lives on board? Absolutely not. In all situations the plane can and would safely fly, but it's just not an acceptable situation to put lives like this at risk. Remember the drone itself may not cause an indecent beyond the impact, but at low altitudes these are critical stages of flight, it wouldn't take a lot to turn this small(ish) issue in to a very big one.
You may then go and say, "don't you deal with this with birds?". To this I say absolutely! All of these threat are apparent with birds, but they are so much more easy to predict. Seasons, environmental conditions, geographic locations, they are considerably easier to predict. When they do arrive, you get pilot reports, airport operations will go attempt to scare them away, there are protocols in place for when birds are around. Birds are not stupid either, they know that airports and airplanes are pretty scary things, so they tend to keep their distance. Of course small birds like a robin are very little threat to us, they hit any part of the plane they'll just be vaporised (sorry bird lovers
), if they go through the engine they won't cause any problem. The larger the bird, the larger the threat. Add in to this flocking birds then you can have problems, a flock of migrating swans is a serious issue...
The problem is that anybody can just go get a drone, charge it up, then go fly it. There is no predictability in the nature or timing of drone operation. I get it too, the views from 10,000ft are seriously good, why wouldn't you want to see it? With nobody telling you to not do so, then what's stopping you?
In my opinion the solution is not to ban them, or to require registration. If I were to fly past a drone on approach, I'm hardly going to be able to spot the type of drone far less the registration to report it. No, in my opinion drones above a certain weight (I do not know what weight this will be, it would have to be tested) should have built in geo fencing, it shouldn't even take off near an airport or in restricted areas. Altitude caps which vary according to the skies above. This data is easily available and could be built into the software. When new data is out the drone should be unable to power up until it is updated. With this then you could assure the safety of the skies and you can enjoy your drone and make sure everyone is is free from drone related risk.
From a different aspect, the commercial costs for things like yesterday can run into the millions. I am obviously not going to share figures but a friend was caught up in the Gatwick issues the other day and a quick tot up put a single flight well into the multiple 6 figure sum for costs to the airline. Times this by the amount of aircraft and you get big money! Who's going to pay for this? The drone operator, no chance. I doubt they'd have to pay for a new $10M engine either when they get their footage of it being ingested.
It's great to see "drone code" posters near drones in some stores (though very few), but people don't read them, they don't care. The risk should be taken out of the hands of the operator and be built into the devices themselves. It's great to see people like DJI doing this already, it should be made standard.
Lets put it this way, I for one hope I never hit a drone, I don't want to have to deal with such unnecessary dangers at work for someones youtube moment...
I'm a pilot, I fly for a well known British airline where I regularly transport hundreds of people around Europe. I have one job to do, and that is to get them there safely, preferably on time, but always safely. We spend hours and hours going through different scenarios in simulators, practicing for as many eventualities as we can to ensure when things do go wrong, people get to go home that evening. However, drones are not a regular occurrence and are nearly impossible to predict. Are they a problem? Absolutely! It's very well accepted within our industry that a drone strike is not a "what if", more of a "when".
Let me get one fact out there before, I'm very pro-drone. I used to fly RC aircraft and helicopters as a serious hobby, drones are a natural evolution of that hobby and it's great to see people picking up anything that flies. I don't personally own a drone and would not spend thousands on a camera carrying done (I'm lucky enough to get these views as part of my job), but I do often fly around with my friends FPV racing drones and have a great time doing so.
The problem is multifaceted. There is the immediate threat, which is of course impact. Would a drone damage an aircraft? Well I'd say yes. A small drone wouldn't do much, but when you start approaching the size or weight of a DJI Phantom, then you will have problems. Let's put it this way, worst case scenario; a Phantom weighs 1.2kg or so is flying around at 3000ft on departure over a busy city, I've been cleared for high speed and am flying at 280kts with a nice 20kt tailwind. This works out to be around 360mph over the ground. Imagine the energy involved in this impact of my plane and this Phantom. Would it damage the windscreen, most likely, potentially hitting the crew. Would it take out an engine? Almost certainly. Could it damage the slat/flaps requiring you to land in a high-risk zero flap situation, again most likely. Is this an acceptable risk with so many lives on board? Absolutely not. In all situations the plane can and would safely fly, but it's just not an acceptable situation to put lives like this at risk. Remember the drone itself may not cause an indecent beyond the impact, but at low altitudes these are critical stages of flight, it wouldn't take a lot to turn this small(ish) issue in to a very big one.
You may then go and say, "don't you deal with this with birds?". To this I say absolutely! All of these threat are apparent with birds, but they are so much more easy to predict. Seasons, environmental conditions, geographic locations, they are considerably easier to predict. When they do arrive, you get pilot reports, airport operations will go attempt to scare them away, there are protocols in place for when birds are around. Birds are not stupid either, they know that airports and airplanes are pretty scary things, so they tend to keep their distance. Of course small birds like a robin are very little threat to us, they hit any part of the plane they'll just be vaporised (sorry bird lovers
), if they go through the engine they won't cause any problem. The larger the bird, the larger the threat. Add in to this flocking birds then you can have problems, a flock of migrating swans is a serious issue...The problem is that anybody can just go get a drone, charge it up, then go fly it. There is no predictability in the nature or timing of drone operation. I get it too, the views from 10,000ft are seriously good, why wouldn't you want to see it? With nobody telling you to not do so, then what's stopping you?
In my opinion the solution is not to ban them, or to require registration. If I were to fly past a drone on approach, I'm hardly going to be able to spot the type of drone far less the registration to report it. No, in my opinion drones above a certain weight (I do not know what weight this will be, it would have to be tested) should have built in geo fencing, it shouldn't even take off near an airport or in restricted areas. Altitude caps which vary according to the skies above. This data is easily available and could be built into the software. When new data is out the drone should be unable to power up until it is updated. With this then you could assure the safety of the skies and you can enjoy your drone and make sure everyone is is free from drone related risk.
From a different aspect, the commercial costs for things like yesterday can run into the millions. I am obviously not going to share figures but a friend was caught up in the Gatwick issues the other day and a quick tot up put a single flight well into the multiple 6 figure sum for costs to the airline. Times this by the amount of aircraft and you get big money! Who's going to pay for this? The drone operator, no chance. I doubt they'd have to pay for a new $10M engine either when they get their footage of it being ingested.
It's great to see "drone code" posters near drones in some stores (though very few), but people don't read them, they don't care. The risk should be taken out of the hands of the operator and be built into the devices themselves. It's great to see people like DJI doing this already, it should be made standard.
Lets put it this way, I for one hope I never hit a drone, I don't want to have to deal with such unnecessary dangers at work for someones youtube moment...
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Caporegime
That's exactly it really, flying drones isn't that difficult to fly these especially with the tech they have built in ie gps lock etc.
But as easy as they are to fly, people have lost them in flight because they don't understand the fail safe measures within the drones. For example if my battery goes low I get an alarm on my app telling me my battery is low and I best fly it back to myself. But I've seen plenty of videos where people have ignored those warning and in the end they lose it or it comes crashing down with damage being done to the drone.