Dropped Kerb -Drainage query

[Mr.Pink]

Bit of background, - for some years we have had a block paved driveway, but no way to access it by vehicle as the kerb hadn't been dropped.
Got some quotes from contractors to drop the kerb and resurface (ouch!) and put in an application and paid council fee for the application.
The council have emailed me saying that the highways agency rep has asked where the soakaway will go, and that the soakway needs to be on private land.
I am confused and i am only dropping the kerb, not changing any of the surface where i park (which has been hard standing for many years). I have tried to ask for clarification, as this is purely dropping the kerb, but am stick in this loop,- i cant speak to the highways guy directly.

Has something in the law or guidance changed? why would you require a soak away fro a dropped kerb?

 

[Armageus]

Because technically you shouldnt have had any hard standing/parking without a dropped kerb

 

[ci_newman]

The blocked paving should have had a soakaway installed with it under building regs, so I guess they are querying where it is.

 

[Mr.Pink]

thanks. So this is similar to what i was guessing... It isn't the dropped kerb that requires the soakaway, its the driveway. Our hard standing was already in place when we purchased the property in 2006. I guess they must be now asking people to fit soakaways retrospectively?
Still feels like this is something that could be challenged. It would be a much bigger job to lift the hardstanding and fit a soakaway

 

[ci_newman]

thanks. So this is similar to what i was guessing... It isn't the dropped kerb that requires the soakaway, its the driveway. Our hard standing was already in place when we purchased the property in 2006. I guess they must be now asking people to fit soakaways retrospectively?
Still feels like this is something that could be challenged. It would be a much bigger job to lift the hardstanding and fit a soakaway

The law says "new driveways" need to have proper soakaway drainage. As you are making a new driveway by adding a dropped kerb, I would suggest thats why the planning official believes it applies to you.

 

[RockLobster]

Not sure why they are asking this. When we applied and was granted the council official didn’t care what we were doing with the driveway. I spoke to the lady about resin, tarmac, etc and she said I’m not bothered that’s a different department.

 

[DB_SamX]

Simplistically, the logic is that a dropped
Kerb implies a slope that would allow water to run off into the road, thereby contributing to flooding. Only you know where water currently runs off to.

You could try challenging them saying you're not making it any worse (if true) but who knows if they'll accept it. Just make a case with photos, levels, etc.

If the dropped kerb will lead to water running into the road, then you may have to install a linear drain at the edge of your paving and pipe it to a soakaway on your property (which might not work if clay).

 

[gailjon]

The difficulty will be that the installation of the dropped kerb represents a new driveway being built, no matter what the area was beforehand. IT may be worth giving them a phone a speaking directly to them to ask their opinion. I personally think that you will need to install some form of drainage as they request as officially there was no driveway there before the dropped kerb was/is installed)

 

[DB_SamX]

The difficulty will be that the installation of the dropped kerb represents a new driveway being built, no matter what the area was beforehand.

Is this referenced anywhere online? Might come in handy in future to know.

 

[Rich1988]

Is this referenced anywhere online? Might come in handy in future to know.

It is fairly common knowledge (I thought but could be just the kind of not very helpful knowledge I retain) that you have no legal right to cross a kerb/footpath to access your property with a vehicle unless there is a dropped kerb. without a dropped kerb in that situation it is not a "lawful" driveway at all.

Section 72 of the Highways Act states you can't drive over a public footpath unless you are gaining lawful access. Section 184, Highways Act 1980 states there is no right to drive across any public footway to access a private forecourt or driveway unless there is a properly built vehicle crossover (dropped kerb)

Case study from a few years back that went through an ombudsman

https://www.tpos.co.uk/news-media-a...dies/item/an-undropped-kerb-misleading-action

The council are clearly concerned (and rightly so it could be argued) about the potential increase of surface water run off into the public sewerage system and want to ensure this isn't going to be a problem. It may sound minor but if this kind of thing wasnt monitored the cumulative effect could be serious especially in flood prone areas.

 

[DB_SamX]

The council are clearly concerned (and rightly so it could be argued) about the potential increase of surface water run off into the public sewerage system and want to ensure this isn't going to be a problem. It may sound minor but if this kind of thing wasnt monitored the cumulative effect could be serious especially in flood prone areas.

I am aware of that, and agree with it as it's an important issue. But didn't know that simply adding a dropped kerb to an existing driveway (despite previously no access) would constitute a "new driveway" from a planning perspective.

 

[the-evaluator]

A colleague of mine had a similar problem. It all came down to what a 'driveway' actually is. He was told that a driveway is hardstanding with vehicular access, so a dropped kerb. Until the dropped kerb was installed he didn't technically have a driveway.

Had the previous owner of his house had the dropped kerb installed at the same time as the block paving, then the lack of drainage wouldn't be an issue as it was permitted at the time. In the end he had to get some blocks replaced with a soakaway, luckily there was a suitable drain that could empty into.

Our local council wouldn't even let us apply for a dropped kerb until the hardstanding had been installed, well, we could but there was a note on the application from that it would be declined. Actually getting it sorted was easy enough for us but I see that the application process is a bit more difficult these days, I assume to encourage you to use the preferred contractor rather than using someone else. We got a local company to do ours and saved about £1k in the process.

 

[j.col]

If the contractor you are using is experienced in doing drop kerbs, let him deal with the council, part of why you are paying him

 

[jellybeard999]

I am aware of that, and agree with it as it's an important issue. But didn't know that simply adding a dropped kerb to an existing driveway (despite previously no access) would constitute a "new driveway" from a planning perspective.

Technically, as you don't have a dropped kerb, you don't currently have a driveway, you have a paved front garden with gap in the wall. Kind of like how if you make a space in the loft without planning/building regs and you sell your house, you can't call it a bedroom, even if it has a bed in it.

This situation wouldn't (or shouldn't!) arise now as "If the surface to be covered is more than five square metres planning permission will be needed for laying traditional, impermeable driveways that do not provide for the water to run to a permeable area." ... ie you'd need permission to pave the area in the first place.

Planning permission - Paving your front garden - Planning Portal

Details of the planning permission and building regulation regimes for Paving your Front Garden in England

www.planningportal.co.uk

I'd have thought the easiest solution here is to install a drainage channel running to a soakaway or gulley to comply with the requirements. As this is on your land, you could even do it yourself if you are on a budget, or you could get the contractor to install it. Either way, that should satisfy the highway guy.