Dt 990 600ohm Vs k712

Bobbymuchy

Bobbymuchy

Bobbymuchy

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Dacamp will be k5 pro, creative g6 or x7. Depends on what happens on black Friday

which is a better headphone as an all rounder?

Reason for going for the 600ohm is because I've read the highs are easier to deal with.

I've read the dt 990 imaging is pin point but how about the k712?

I've read so much conflicting information regarding the k712 imaging. Some say it's accurate in games and other say sounds sound blended together on top of the sound starting further away which can lead to confusion in a competitive setting.


I'll be using these headphone for everything.

Casual gaming,. competitive gaming, music (music pref = rock), and watching movies.

Thanks
 
Welcome aboard.

If gaming is really important, I would suggest putting Creative's new Sound Blaster X3 as top contender:
(and plain forget dumb single purpose DACs for that usage scenario)

We hear in 3D with two ears, because shape of the head (+pinnae) causes direction dependant changes to signal received by both ears from sound source.
Those signal changes can be modeled mathematically by algorithms called as HRTF, but there's one snag.
As you may have noticed, that "upstair's guy" forgot to standardize human head shape and while one person has narrow face, another has round face, plus some rarer angular face and all the variations in between.
Same for shape and size of pinnae.
Hence algorithm based on some average head shape is more or less compromise for most people.
If your head shape is close to that used model, then accuracy of binaural cues and sound positioning is good.
But if your head shape is farther from it, positional accuracy can suffer fast and especially front-rear directionality weakens.

Considering that basic physics has been known from the time when abacus was the only computer used by people, using that knowledge to improve HRTFs has been decidedly lack luster.
(helped by Microsoft screwing PC gamers to butt by killing DirectSound and sound hardware processing in Windows Vista and sending PC game sound development back to pre Y2K)
It wasn't until CES2018 that Creative announced development of "Super X-Fi" named tech, which uses analyzing of photos of face and pinnae to customize HRTF to be more accurate for listener.
Despite of such tech's advantages to headphone using gamers Creative has been sluggish to introduce it to sound cards.
In fact it's like their left hand didn't know what right was doing and vice versa with release of some very expensive models in last winter with only old non-customizable HRTF.
Also release of Sound BlasterX G6 year ago was dimmed by it.
And so far Sound Blaster X3 is the only sound card with Super X-Fi.


As for headphones I own both AKG K712 and 250 ohm DT990 + K702 as neutral reference.

If used to usual very little treble or "warm sound" headphones, "Beyer's treble" can certainly be too much for music.
600 ohm could have slightly smoother treble, but equalizer's 8kHz band is also very effective for that and certaily no variant of DT990 has any smooth treble.
And while having very low current demand (because of high impedance) they need headphone output to have quite high voltage swing for high dynamic range content.
Though neither are AKGs shy in treble compared to usual headphones!

In gaming (+movies) with binaural sound simulation that treble isn't problem, but in fact helps to balance above neutral bass.
K712 has some overall advantage over DT990 in distinguishing details, while having little less fun bass immersion.
Though in some sounds DT990 does better likely because of K712 having dip around few kHz.
(K702 with its neutral bass is of course clear step ahead for best distinguishing of details)

But in case of Sound Blaster X3/Super X-Fi there's another factor.
Creative has Super X-Fi profiles for Beyer's DT770-990 serie to take headphone's sound characteristics into account to maintain accuracy of binaural cues.
That will likely make DT990's sound positioning surpass K712 without such profile.


As for other aspects of the headphones in comfort/ergonomics Beyer wins clearly:
Manual headband length adjustment is better than AKG's "automatic" adjustment relying also on pressure to keep ear cups positioned.
Also that head shape and size plays role in that.
On small especially downward narrowing head AKGs could easily try to creep down. (my head is near that limit)
While on big head pressure could be considerable and elastic bands of AKG's system are certainly going to get stretched and loosen.
And AKG's pads are no match for Beyer's super soft velour pads.

In long time value for money Beyer simply demolishes AKG:
AKG (or Harman > Samsung behind them) will charge you arm and legs for K712's replacement ear pads:
You can get two pairs of Beyer's DT990 pads for price of single K712 pad and have some pocket money left!
And Beyerdynamic sells basically every part as spare part and old design with little parts is very simple to maintain by yourself.
DT990's non-detachable cable is only weaker point.
But it's very durable feeling and superior in minimizing cable hitting clothing causing sound.
 
@EsaT

Thank you. I've read mixed results regarding that new creative feature. I'd give the X3 a go if it supported console but it doesn't.

The headband support mechanism does worry me as my head is on the smaller side. I've also read about the 712 not having the best clamping force.


For stereo imaging (k5 pro) is the 990 good with directional audio? Beyers are apparently the best when it comes to imaging.

I'm using astro a40s so 990s will probably be a nice improvement.
 
Comments about Super X-Fi basing on music listening can be skipped.
It would be like complaining that saw is bad hammer:
Stereo recording simply doesn't have any spatial data what human brain understands besides left-right direction and no amount of processing changes that.
So that advertising of Super X-Fi for music has been really the least beneficial place to use HRTF.

Heck, pure speaker stereo sound mix from games doesn't even give proper left-right immersion when listened through headphones:
Headphones lack natural traveling of left side sound to right ear and vice versa.
Hence no matter how accurate heaphones are, that results in sounds being very accurately positioned either inside left ear, right ear, or in center of the head.
Simply because without any binaural cues brain doesn't know where else to position sounds!
Binaural recording is the proper sound format for headphone audio.
Wish more music were recorded in that format, because it's the closest thing to real thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpNtNCqP94g
(needs to be listened with effects/processing disabled and suspect those Astros aren't up to requirements of binaural sound)


Lack of DD decoding and console support is definitely one of the misses in SB X3.
Creative really bungled up their new product launches.
SoundBlasterX G6 with Super X-Fi would have been pretty versatile package for headphone users.
I wonder if they're going to fill gap between X3 and X7 with more higher end product including also console compatibility.
Also X3's headphone output lags behind SBX G6 with only 3V max voltage, which would be lowish for 600 ohm Beyers.

So SBX G6 and SB X7 are the options with both having optical input.
G6 having big price advantage and advantage in portable size.
As downside it doesn't cope well with multiple sound sources simultaneously and needs always that USB power even if you connect it to console using optical.
X7 again has its own power and can be connected to multiple source devices independently using USB for PC and optical input for consoles.
Creative's non-customizable HRTF is certainly better than average and overhyped Dolby Heaphone used by Astros.
(one of the oldest HRTFs intended to imitate movie theater's sound)


AKGs definitely have more clamping force than DT990 "Edition/Premium", because they rely on that to keep ear cups positioned.
And I'm no big person or with big head.

For music I would recommend minus 4 to 5 dBs to equalizer's 8kHz band to tame that Beyer's treble.
Though especially K702 wins in accuracy of sound reproduction being intended for very neutral sound for monitoring purposes.
But that neutral bass can also feel shy for that normal gaming and lacks good "fun factor".
DT990 again has good above neutral punch for balanced gaming experience.
If feeling that stronger bass bothers distinguishing details from explosions in competitive gaming, it would be easy to make equalizer profile for toning down that.

It's certainly easier and especially safer to tone down bass than compensate for lack of it:
Trying to boost signal or any part of it runs risk of signal clipping.
For simple example, if possible range of the signal is from 0 to 10 and you're trying to double signal whose value is 6, you won't be getting correct value of 12 but 10.
 
EsaT said:
Comments about Super X-Fi basing on music listening can be skipped.
It would be like complaining that saw is bad hammer:
Stereo recording simply doesn't have any spatial data what human brain understands besides left-right direction and no amount of processing changes that.
So that advertising of Super X-Fi for music has been really the least beneficial place to use HRTF.

Heck, pure speaker stereo sound mix from games doesn't even give proper left-right immersion when listened through headphones:
Headphones lack natural traveling of left side sound to right ear and vice versa.
Hence no matter how accurate heaphones are, that results in sounds being very accurately positioned either inside left ear, right ear, or in center of the head.
Simply because without any binaural cues brain doesn't know where else to position sounds!
Binaural recording is the proper sound format for headphone audio.
Wish more music were recorded in that format, because it's the closest thing to real thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpNtNCqP94g
(needs to be listened with effects/processing disabled and suspect those Astros aren't up to requirements of binaural sound)


Lack of DD decoding and console support is definitely one of the misses in SB X3.
Creative really bungled up their new product launches.
SoundBlasterX G6 with Super X-Fi would have been pretty versatile package for headphone users.
I wonder if they're going to fill gap between X3 and X7 with more higher end product including also console compatibility.
Also X3's headphone output lags behind SBX G6 with only 3V max voltage, which would be lowish for 600 ohm Beyers.

So SBX G6 and SB X7 are the options with both having optical input.
G6 having big price advantage and advantage in portable size.
As downside it doesn't cope well with multiple sound sources simultaneously and needs always that USB power even if you connect it to console using optical.
X7 again has its own power and can be connected to multiple source devices independently using USB for PC and optical input for consoles.
Creative's non-customizable HRTF is certainly better than average and overhyped Dolby Heaphone used by Astros.
(one of the oldest HRTFs intended to imitate movie theater's sound)


AKGs definitely have more clamping force than DT990 "Edition/Premium", because they rely on that to keep ear cups positioned.
And I'm no big person or with big head.

For music I would recommend minus 4 to 5 dBs to equalizer's 8kHz band to tame that Beyer's treble.
Though especially K702 wins in accuracy of sound reproduction being intended for very neutral sound for monitoring purposes.
But that neutral bass can also feel shy for that normal gaming and lacks good "fun factor".
DT990 again has good above neutral punch for balanced gaming experience.
If feeling that stronger bass bothers distinguishing details from explosions in competitive gaming, it would be easy to make equalizer profile for toning down that.

It's certainly easier and especially safer to tone down bass than compensate for lack of it:
Trying to boost signal or any part of it runs risk of signal clipping.
For simple example, if possible range of the signal is from 0 to 10 and you're trying to double signal whose value is 6, you won't be getting correct value of 12 but 10.
Click to expand...


Thanks. Creative are selling the g5 for £50 which seems like a good buy.

Are you able to measure how deep the ear pads are on the k712 and 990 600ohm?

My left ear sticks out by around 2cm so I'm curious if it will touch the cloth that covers the driver.

From your description of the two headphones the k712 seems better suited for me but I took a look at those.pad prices.....Jesus Christ.

I'd have to pay 50% of the headphone cost to replace the pads lol.

How often do akg and beyer pads need to be replaced on average. I know sens (6 series) generally need swapped once a year.

I guess for me it's going to depend on what drops most on black friday.


Just wondering but have you tried 880s?
 
Last edited:
ToTheMax said:
I do and yes they are very good. Couple of negatives though is the elastic suspension system stretches over time and requires bodges down the road, and pad replacements are ludicrously expensive.
Click to expand...


Oof.....how long do the pads last? Same question for the suspension system.

How do you get the suspension system repaired and how much does it cost?

How do
 
Bobbymuchy said:
Oof.....how long do the pads last? Same question for the suspension system.

How do you get the suspension system repaired and how much does it cost?

How do
Click to expand...

The fabric of the pads picks up skin oils and dead skin cells over time and get a bit skanky after about 1 year of regular use. I'm about 2 years in and the pads aren't pleasant looking but functional.

After the the suspension elastic stretches too far, you can be bodged your own elastic but looks rubbish. I haven't investigated a professional repair.
 
@ToTheMax that's pretty appalling to be honest.

So every 2 years you need to get the headband repaired and spend £90 on new ear pads?

A headphone that needs £100 or so in maintenance every 2 years doesn't seem that good...it's like car MOT.


As for the headband is it loose? I've read that for some people it slides down over time.

Again on the suspension system. Do you meat the top part that sits on your head stretches or the bits on the left and right of the headphone loosen up? Is it more of a comfort thing?

Can you not RMA if you're within 2 years?
 
Bobbymuchy said:
@ToTheMax that's pretty appalling to be honest.

So every 2 years you need to get the headband repaired and spend £90 on new ear pads?

A headphone that needs £100 or so in maintenance every 2 years doesn't seem that good...it's like car MOT.


As for the headband is it loose? I've read that for some people it slides down over time.

Again on the suspension system. Do you meat the top part that sits on your head stretches or the bits on the left and right of the headphone loosen up? Is it more of a comfort thing?

Can you not RMA if you're within 2 years?
Click to expand...

Any headphone with fabric pads suffers from this over time, if you can't wash fabric it's inevitable. Some pads also compress over time, the 712's haven't noticeably done so however.

Specifically the elastic down the sides attached to the ear cups stretches over time, this means the suspension system at the top over time extends meaning the ear cups get lower and lower on your head until the fit is useless. This can be fixed by introducing your own elastic on the outside of the cups, but looks naff and needs replacing regularly.

Wear and tear is not covered by RMA, if there was an electrical problem that could be covered.
 
ToTheMax said:
Any headphone with fabric pads suffers from this over time, if you can't wash fabric it's inevitable. Some pads also compress over time, the 712's haven't noticeably done so however.

Specifically the elastic down the sides attached to the ear cups stretches over time, this means the suspension system at the top over time extends meaning the ear cups get lower and lower on your head until the fit is useless. This can be fixed by introducing your own elastic on the outside of the cups, but looks naff and needs replacing regularly.

Wear and tear is not covered by RMA, if there was an electrical problem that could be covered.
Click to expand...

Just to add, replacement pads for 712's are ridiculously expensive sadly which is why my pair has been seeing less use in preference to some of the other headphones/IEM's now.
 
ToTheMax said:
Any headphone with fabric pads suffers from this over time, if you can't wash fabric it's inevitable. Some pads also compress over time, the 712's haven't noticeably done so however.

Specifically the elastic down the sides attached to the ear cups stretches over time, this means the suspension system at the top over time extends meaning the ear cups get lower and lower on your head until the fit is useless. This can be fixed by introducing your own elastic on the outside of the cups, but looks naff and needs replacing regularly.

Wear and tear is not covered by RMA, if there was an electrical problem that could be covered.
Click to expand...

The pads I could get past but the headband suspension system worries me. Aren't these headphones pretty heavily dependent on positioning?
 
@ToTheMax dam shame tbh.

I assume this headband problem happens across the board like the 702s?

Btw can you tell me how deep the ear cups are? I'd like to know if my ears would touch in bit that protects the driver
 
Bobbymuchy said:
The pads I could get past but the headband suspension system worries me. Aren't these headphones pretty heavily dependent on positioning?
Click to expand...

There is a sweet spot yes, your ears want to be aligned with the driver rather than offset. The pads are pretty large so placement isn't automatic.
 
Bobbymuchy said:
@ToTheMax dam shame tbh.

I assume this headband problem happens across the board like the 702s?

Btw can you tell me how deep the ear cups are? I'd like to know if my ears would touch in bit that protects the driver
Click to expand...

Yes 702 or 7XX same design.

Since the pads are angled I'll take the depth at the center, currently around 2.4 cm depth. Sometimes I can feel a whisp of fabric on my ear, but depends on placement/fit. Still a very comfortable set that can be worn for hours without fatigue.
 
ToTheMax said:
Yes 702 or 7XX same design.

Since the pads are angled I'll take the depth at the center, currently around 2.4 cm depth. Sometimes I can feel a whisp of fabric on my ear, but depends on placement/fit. Still a very comfortable set that can be worn for hours without fatigue.
Click to expand...

My left ear might hit the side fabric a little but whatever.

I'll contact akg and see what can be done with any suspension issues. I'll let you know my findings
 
Bobbymuchy said:
Thanks. Creative are selling the g5 for £50 which seems like a good buy.

Are you able to measure how deep the ear pads are on the k712 and 990 600ohm?

My left ear sticks out by around 2cm so I'm curious if it will touch the cloth that covers the driver.


How often do akg and beyer pads need to be replaced on average. I know sens (6 series) generally need swapped once a year.
Click to expand...
SBX G5 lacks DD decoding and doesn't work with consoles.
Adding DD decoding was the biggest single improvement in G6.


DT990's pads are maybe little flatter than K712's pads, but then again AKG has higher clamping force and center of the cup has some stuffing in there over the driver protecting grill.
Beyer certainly feels overall more comfortable on ears.
After getting K712s used them pretty much exclusively for over year and half and have now used DT990 for couple months.


I guess pad replacing time depends quite a lot on user.
Some people sweat more than others and would likely need to wash and replace pads often.
And then there's the look of them.
AKG's pads are firmer so they likely don't really flatten like Beyer's pads do after some years, but they certainly don't stay clean any better.
That firmer pressure might in fact embed dirt and gunk into them faster.
And black pads show it lot faster than grey/silver.
Anyway keeping clean nice looking pads on K712 would cost lot in just five years.

I guess Beyerdynamic being still family company instead of owned by faceless money/big corporation shows in that reasonable price of pads. (+ spare part availability)
 
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