Dynamic tone mapping on or off?

[StartWars]

I recently bought an LG CX and was wondering what are people's thoughts about dynamic tone mapping when watching movies and TV? Do you keep it on or off?

I can't make up my mind which I prefer. Sometimes the image looks too dim with it switched off but I understand having it on can result in a loss of detail and make picture look less natural? Should I also leave it on or off when playing games on a PS5 or switch to HGIG?

 

[Baja King]

I prefer it off, I'm a cinematographer by trade and the less effected the picture the better.

 

[Grim5]

On for me

HDTV youtube said On for mine so I use that

 

[jpaul]

... it's obviously giving you a solution for optmising hdr10 material when you don't have individual frame/gop brightness levels, unlike dolby/hdr10+ protocols,
if it's well implemented, been on panasonics for 3 years ?, then what is not to like ?

 

[StartWars]

Can having dynamic tone mapping on cause a loss in detail?

 

[Grim5]

Can having dynamic tone mapping on cause a loss in detail?

In theory it might cause more black crush if it's not done well

tone mapping is just there to try and help hdr10 look more like Dolby vision

 

[Broken Hope]

I have it off on my C9, most streamed HDR is Dolby Vision, I use the optimiser function on my Panasonic UHD player which is better than dynamic tone mapping on the TV and I use HGIG for games.

 

[VincentHanna]

Doesn't it have different settings for HDR and Dolby Vision anyway?

I'm sure mine is on for HDR gaming, but off if there is a Dolby Vision source.

 

[Broken Hope]

It doesn’t apply to DV and HGIG is better for gaming.

 

[StartWars]

I should mention I'm using it predominantly for 4K blurays or streaming services that don't use Dolby Vision.

For HDR content I use Filmmaker mode with OLED Light set to 100, Contrast set to 100, and Brightness set to 50. With dynamic tone mapping disabled the image looks duller or is it more accurate?

 

[Daytrader]

I have it off on my C9, most streamed HDR is Dolby Vision, I use the optimiser function on my Panasonic UHD player which is better than dynamic tone mapping on the TV and I use HGIG for games.

So you still use HGIG for non supported HGIG games as well ? as only a few support HGIG dont they ?

 

[Grim5]

I should mention I'm using it predominantly for 4K blurays or streaming services that don't use Dolby Vision.

For HDR content I use Filmmaker mode with OLED Light set to 100, Contrast set to 100, and Brightness set to 50. With dynamic tone mapping disabled the image looks duller or is it more accurate?

I've spent a lot of time testing it on my own now.

OLED cannot reach the peak brightness intended by the content maker in most scenarios, dynamic tone mapping scales the intended brightness curve to try and present it on your screen - this makes bright highlights brighter - the problem however is that dynamic tone mapping unfortunately scales up every pixel - so the entire image increases in brightness even though tone mapping should only affect the bright highlights it unfortunately affects everything. Because of this you get highlight clipping (where a brighter object on the screen is next to a darker object and the darker object has less detail).

Hgig attempts to fix this by only affecting the bright part of the screen but it requires the content to be designed for hgig otherwise it looks a bit funny.

So in summary, hgig = more accurate but requires content designed for it, tone mapping = blown out image that sacrifices image detail for brightness

Dolby vision fixes both problems - you get a dynamic image that is a combination of hgig and tone mapping and doesn't require any messing around with settings


Hdtv just posted a video comparing hdr10 gaming to Dolby vision gaming

 

[aoaaron]

On. Its literally just mapping the HDR to the capability of your display. Its not going against creator intent. HDR is only reference level on a HDR mastering monitor, otherwise you need DTM.

 

[Grim5]

On. Its literally just mapping the HDR to the capability of your display. Its not going against creator intent. HDR is only reference level on a HDR mastering monitor, otherwise you need DTM.

Dynamic tone mapping raises the brightness of parts of the screen that should stay dim according to the Hdr curve. How can you say that is not interfering with creators intent

 

[aoaaron]

I've spent a lot of time testing it on my own now.

OLED cannot reach the peak brightness intended by the content maker in most scenarios, dynamic tone mapping scales the intended brightness curve to try and present it on your screen - this makes bright highlights brighter - the problem however is that dynamic tone mapping unfortunately scales up every pixel - so the entire image increases in brightness even though tone mapping should only affect the bright highlights it unfortunately affects everything. Because of this you get highlight clipping (where a brighter object on the screen is next to a darker object and the darker object has less detail).

Hgig attempts to fix this by only affecting the bright part of the screen but it requires the content to be designed for hgig otherwise it looks a bit funny.

So in summary, hgig = more accurate but requires content designed for it, tone mapping = blown out image that sacrifices image detail for brightness

Dolby vision fixes both problems - you get a dynamic image that is a combination of hgig and tone mapping and doesn't require any messing around with settings


Hdtv just posted a video comparing hdr10 gaming to Dolby vision gaming

DV is still a mess and required DTM dependant on your display because it doesn't provide metadata specific and calibrated to your display. Its just non static metadata which still needs to be decoded IMO.

For example, if you used a projector which has DV, DV won't be able to play properly with that displays peak lumen output... its not meant for that.

DV is just non-static metadata in 12-bit container.. not a substitute for DTM

 

[aoaaron]

Dynamic tone mapping raises the brightness of parts of the screen that should stay dim according to the Hdr curve. How can you say that is not interfering with creators intent

Because HDR reference level is on a HDR mastering monitor, not our TVs because although they can get to reference black (on an OLED) they are not getting anywhere near the lumen counts needed which HDR mastering monitors have; and dependant on the content and what peak lumen counts they've used, things can get VERY messy. Especially video games where some HDR implimeentations use sky high target nit counts which no display can attain.

SDR reference is easy to attain because we know the peak lumen output of the display used to master it.


HDR however is a total mess. Its mastered on a monitor which us mere mortals don't have. This is why dynamic tone mapping is so useful. In reality, none of us can afford or have the luxury of a display to do reference HDR but we do have displays which can do reference SDR.

DTM takes the DPL and targets a specific target dynamic nit count and adjusts colours accordingly. It'll actually get CLOSER to a reference image if the DTM solution is good compared to without.

DTM does not simply over brighten and over darken certain areas. It uses the HDR metadata and applies it to your displays capabilities.

For example, MADVR in dyanmic tone mapping is uses your display target peak luminance and dynamic tone mapping target nit count to calibrate the image to your displays capabilities. Thats what LG, Sony et al are doing too. Otherwise without DTM, HDR images will look very dim in certain situations.


Now... if we are talking about DTM relavant to LG specifically; I don't think the quality of their dynamic tone mapping is that amazing. I'd prefer using a MADVR HTPC, a MADVR video processor or a Lumagen video processor to do the tone mapping but it obviously gets expensive.

 

[Grim5]

Good video

 

[aoaaron]

Good video

HDR still seems to be misunderstood by many people for some reason.

Come from someone who owns an OLED and a projector, using HDR on a projector means understanding and embracing dynamic tone mapping. The quality of the DTM is the issue. If the LG is truly overbrightening the image unnatturally, then its an issue with their DTM implimentation. DTM is meant to get closer to reference, not farther away.

Before I owned a projector, I didn't understand HDR properly or DTM. Since owning one and delving into MADVR, Lumagen and the benefits of DTM; its painfully obvious why its needed and why it needs to be implimented properly.

dolby vision does NOT solve the issue of no DTM. It just provides better frame by frame metadata but this is something we already knew. DV >>>> HDR. However if you play that DV on a projector which a DPL of 50 nits and the PJ has no DTM, its going to look like a horrid picture - hence we need DTM. The effect is smaller on a display which has more nits but its relavance still matters.

ITs why lumagens and MADVR envys s this day in age exist for high end users lol.