ECHR interfere in British Soverignty...

Amp34 · 14 Apr 2011 at 01:21

britboy4321 said:
Yea I've been to the US far too much. 6 weeks travelling when I was young -- about 10 times since. The sentence you said about prices being about the same made me lol!

The US standard of life economically whips ours from a great height.

Examples would be good thanks... (sure you can find loads though, but then I could probably do the other way round, and houses and gas I'll give you)

However generally something in the US will cost around the same $:£ ratio as something in the UK/Europe.

Actually funnily enough the first thing I searched for was actually closer to actual price...

PS3 - £230-£250
-$270-330

Either way I've been there for a couple of months over the last couple of years and never found it as cheap as people suggest it is, mostly becuase we had a 2:1 exchange rate for a while, then going over as a tourist it was cheap. If on an average US wage the vast majority of things will be equivilent cost to that of the average person in the UK...

EDIT: As another example... Cars. Taken from the list in the other post a couple of cars that have exact models in the UK.

Honda Civic
US - $15,605 - $25,490
UK - £16,000 - £23,000

Honda Accord
US - $21,180 - $29,730
UK - £21,000 - £29,000

Ford Focus
US - $16,640 - $19,670
UK - £16,000 - £21,000

I'm actually suprised that they are that identical in price!

Judgeneo · 14 Apr 2011 at 01:27

Sure the US has a better economic standard of life, until you need healthcare, or even a holiday. When I was over there it was common practise for a company to not give ANY holiday time for the first 6 months or year of work. We've got it good over here, the USA isn't something we should aspire towards.

Europe is one big experiment, and the way its handled the economic crisis has more than a few people questioning it.
How it reacts and evolves in the next few years will be very interesting. Lots of the member states simply shouldn't be in it from a purely economic perspective, and I can't see any other reason for letting the likes of turkey join.
The UK is too borderline, we either need to embrace the EU fully, and make it work for us, or leave it totally. Right now we get the worst of both worlds.

Sorry if that sounds a little incoherent, I'll look it over in the morning when I can concentrate better. Some good debate here

arknor · 14 Apr 2011 at 01:28

britboy4321 said:
Some parts of Europe have less social support than the US, some have more.

The fact is, money and standard of life alone, the US is THRASHING all us Europeans. And as a single entity we beat them on everything required to improve our economic standard of life. But for decade after decade after decade they have nicer houses, better cars, better economic lives. They don't work harder. Surely you don't think it's right? Surely you don't think it's fair?? So what is the big difference between Europe and the US? THE STATES WORK TOGETHER, RATHER THAN FIGHTING EACH OTHER.

BS ! how come on the news the other week there was a section about the people who had imigrated to america that had decided to go back to their original countries because the american dream no longer exists.

most of them said they could make more money if they stayed where they were, maybe if your middle class america is a nice place for the people on the breadline its not.

a quick google finds this...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12810828

"People here don't have money any more," complains Mr Maina, who says the "American Dream" of a big house, flashy car and piles of money was unrealistic.

Instead he found long hours, little pay and limited joy.

Life in America is so demanding, says Mr Maina, that it has cost several of his African friends their marriages and even led some to commit suicide.

"It is very difficult right now and so many people are packing and going back to Kenya in big, big numbers."

when people are leaving america to return to kenya you know america is far worse than the uk....

the american dream is dead if it was ever alive in the first place!

Biohazard · 14 Apr 2011 at 01:29

Judgeneo said:
Sure the US has a better economic standard of life, until you need healthcare, or even a holiday. When I was over there it was common practise for a company to not give ANY holiday time for the first 6 months or year of work. We've got it good over here, the USA isn't something we should aspire towards.

Europe is one big experiment, and the way its handled the economic crisis has more than a few people questioning it.
How it reacts and evolves in the next few years will be very interesting. Lots of the member states simply shouldn't be in it from a purely economic perspective, and I can't see any other reason for letting the likes of turkey join.
The UK is too borderline, we either need to embrace the EU fully, and make it work for us, or leave it totally. Right now we get the worst of both worlds.

Sorry if that sounds a little incoherent, I'll look it over in the morning when I can concentrate better. Some good debate here

Sounds fine to me, I agree with a lot of it.

Amp34 · 14 Apr 2011 at 01:35

arknor said:
BS ! how come on the news the other week there was a section about the people who had imigrated to america that had decided to go back to their original countries because the american dream no longer exists.

most of them said they could make more money if they stayed where they were, maybe if your middle class america is a nice place for the people on the breadline its not.

a quick google finds this...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12810828

when people are leaving america to return to kenya you know america is far worse than the uk....

the american dream is dead if it was ever alive in the first place!

Exactly, if you're in the middle/upper classes you'll do fine, much like you do in the UK. If on the other hand you're not then you have a much harsher life. Little healthcare, no college, rubbish house in a rundown neighbourhood... The average person is no better off over there than over here...

semi-pro waster · 14 Apr 2011 at 07:54

Biohazard said:
Courts clogged with prisoners taking tens of millions in compensation, if not more over longer periods...

If the Napier "Slopping out" case(s) are anything to go by then it'll simply involve a test case (most prisoners may or may not be largely represented by Tony Kelly this time) and the rest will be lodged then held in abeyance awaiting the formal decision on the test case. Once it's decided then the remaining cases could/should be decided in relatively short order and compensation distributed accordingly although I'd agree it's liable to run into significant sums of money if successful on the part of the prisoners.

Biohazard said:
Sorry just saw this Nitefly.

Yes, 'feedback' imposed regulations are a byproduct of the European state. That isn’t the contention.

The laws enacted by our Government for us to cede power in the first place are not viable under the 'auspices' of the sovereignty of Parliament. Westminster cannot bind to a successor, even taking in consideration consent - which there is none.

Any Act of Government is built upon the unlimited sovereignty of Parliament, we can't pick and choose when we accept and bide by this constitutional and legal concept.

It is a total farse. But then again so is most of the UK’s constitution also.

Westminster is a 'perfect' imperial beast in such the way it was created, and the only way to constitutionally get around it is to dissolve itself or for it to be conquered.

The ability of Parliament not to bind its successors is great in theory but we a) can't/won't renegotiate our membership every time a change of government occurs and b) none of the parties likely to get in appear to have any real interest in withdrawing so while de jure Parliament may not be bound, de facto it is. And in essence that means the same thing in law as it does in practice when you look to the substance of the matter.

jas72 · 14 Apr 2011 at 09:09

arknor said:
eu needs us more than we need them seeing s we contribute more than we gain back by a large margin ,

Do we really?

Sherbs · 14 Apr 2011 at 09:32

We should goto war with Europe, whoever they are.

Danthus · 14 Apr 2011 at 09:44

It is all very well for the people of this country to complaining about ECHR but it is our elected representatives that have so shamefully sold out its people.

britboy4321 · 14 Apr 2011 at 10:22

Amp34 said:
The average person is no better off over there than over here...

Nope - the average person in the US will have approximately a third MORE spending power as the average person in the UK.

On a world wide scale, we are about 22nd on the rich list per capita.. same as maybe Iceland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Countries like France, Denmark, Norway etc. thrash us on average spending power. Your clone working just as hard as you, in France, can buy way more groovy stuff than you can.

Although rich on an 'entire world' scale - in terms of Europe, we're about half way down the field.

Castiel · 14 Apr 2011 at 10:24

britboy4321 said:
Nope - the average person in the US will have approximately twice as much spending power as the average person in the UK.

In reality though it is nothing like that.

The standard of living in the US is on a par with the UK and lower than many European countries.

britboy4321 · 14 Apr 2011 at 10:30

Castiel said:
In reality though it is nothing like that.

The standard of living in the US is on a par with the UK and lower than many European countries.

You can only accurately measure economic standard of life.

Otherwise it all gets silly with people saying 'Yea but we have Eastenders over here, they don't - wahay to our standard of life'.

Economically, the amount of spending power the average US citizen has is MASSIVELY HIGHER than virtually all European countries, ESPECIALLY OURS. Sorry friend, this is just fact.

But yes -- they .. er .. 'Have rattlesnakes' therefore their standard of life sucks :/

cHk4 · 14 Apr 2011 at 10:35

Stand and bang.

sanaxe1 · 14 Apr 2011 at 11:18

britboy4321 said:
You can only accurately measure economic standard of life.

Otherwise it all gets silly with people saying 'Yea but we have Eastenders over here, they don't - wahay to our standard of life'.

Economically, the amount of spending power the average US citizen has is MASSIVELY HIGHER than virtually all European countries, ESPECIALLY OURS. Sorry friend, this is just fact.

But yes -- they .. er .. 'Have rattlesnakes' therefore their standard of life sucks :/

Heres some Facts :

50 million people uninsured. They don't have a safety net.
Ranked 37th for heath even though they spend more then anyone.
They have 5% of the world population but 25% of the prisoners.
The fattest nation or 2nd fatest nation.
Lower levels of Democracy then A large number of European nations
Lower life expectancy then most of Europe
Work more hours then the majority of European countries.
Murder rate in UK = 1.6 Murder Rate in USA = 5.9
Number of paid holidays :

Paid leave (paternity etc )

These are just a few. America comes out worse against europe in the majority of things. I always wanted to live in america after spending months and months there. Everything seemed bigger and better until i actually researched and seen that it came at a great cost.

Danthus · 14 Apr 2011 at 11:33

Anyway, the ECHR and our politicians selling us out............

Castiel · 14 Apr 2011 at 11:37

britboy4321 said:
You can only accurately measure economic standard of life.

Otherwise it all gets silly with people saying 'Yea but we have Eastenders over here, they don't - wahay to our standard of life'.

Economically, the amount of spending power the average US citizen has is MASSIVELY HIGHER than virtually all European countries, ESPECIALLY OURS. Sorry friend, this is just fact.

But yes -- they .. er .. 'Have rattlesnakes' therefore their standard of life sucks :/

Except purchasing power per capita is not an indication of living standards, it is an indicator of economic strength.

Having lived in the US, I can tell you, Europe has a better standard of living for the average person.

matt_fsr · 14 Apr 2011 at 12:04

britboy4321 said:
...spending power the average US citizen has

To be honest I think this is your problem.

You're taking an average of the US population, which contains billionaires of the likes of Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg etc and lord only knows how many thousands of others that I cannot name.

Yes, indeed the 'average' spending power may well be higher - but the statistics are heavily skewed thanks to a significant number of ludicrously wealthy people.

A proper 'average' American will be earning a little more than a similarly employed brit or european, but be driving a very similar car and have to fork out for his/her own healthcare and other things that we dont have to.

britboy4321 · 14 Apr 2011 at 12:07

Castiel said:
Having lived in the US, I can tell you, Europe has a better standard of living for the average person.

What?

'Let me tell you, we have it good'? Is that your argument?

Well I see your argument, and I raise you THIS web page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

United states: 4th in the world.

The UK: 26th.

Every study that has ever been done - using just about any remotely scientific method (beyond 'My mate went there once and he said it wasn't that good though) - puts the US as whipping the UK at living standards from a great height.

A proper 'average' American will be earning a little more than a similarly employed brit or european, but be driving a very similar car and have to fork out for his/her own healthcare and other things that we dont have to.

No - the figures also work for the median American. And I'm afraid, between you and me .. when you see the tax dissapear from your wage packet .. you're paying for your healthcare whether you use it or not :/

How anyone can think that a little island in Europe could possibly have similar living standards to the largest super power in the world is beyond me. Only countries that float on oil, or city-states, beat the US. The only way we'll compete remotely is if Europe acts as one entity rather than bickering their way through ..

Combat squirrel · 14 Apr 2011 at 12:17

Judgeneo said:
No, they should NOT be allowed to make laws that effect the UK directly, especially if our own government isn't allowed a say.

I hope this is a wakeup call for the nation, and that those in power do something about it.

This, its an obvious answer really

meghatronic · 14 Apr 2011 at 12:21

britboy4321 said:
Well I see your argument, and I raise you THIS web page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

United states: 4th in the world.

The UK: 26th.

HDI isn't great, being dominated by measures of national performance, something America does well at given it's the de facto world currency. It's discriminates too harshly amongst the categories - leaving little or no room for improvement.

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2009/05/against_the_hum.html

If you look at the Inequality-adjusted HDI, the difference is lesser. What's more the US is falling and the UK is rising.