ECHR rules that defamation of Mohammed doesn't count as free expression

Caporegime
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saw this just now on Maajid Nawaz's Facebook feed - he linked to the following article

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/defaming-prophet-muhammed-not-free-expression-echr/1292823

but there seems to be more details in the below (not sure about the site itself tho... Daily Fail also seems to have picked up the story)

https://reason.com/blog/2018/10/25/european-court-womans-defamation-muhamma

Some dodgy reasoning here from the judges:

The woman, identified only as E.S., led what she billed as informational seminars on Islam back in 2009. At one of those seminars, she called Muhammad a pedophile because of his marriage to a girl named Aisha, who was just 6 years old at the time. "A 56-year-old and a 6-year-old? What do you call that? Give me an example? What do we call it, if it is not pedophilia?" she said.

In 2011, an Austrian court convicted her of "disparaging" Islam and fined her 480 euros, the ECHR said. E.S. fought the conviction on several grounds. For one, she said her statements about Muhammad were true. She also claimed that she wasn't defaming the prophet but rather contributing "to a public debate" about him, according to the ECHR. Finally, she argued that religious groups should have to "tolerate even severe criticism."

ruling, a seven-judge panel argues that while Muhammad may have married a 6-year-old, there's a difference between child marriage and pedophilia:
by accusing Muhammad of paedophilia, the applicant had merely sought to defame him, without providing evidence that his primary sexual interest in Aisha had been her not yet having reached puberty or that his other wives or concubines had been similarly young. In particular, the applicant had disregarded the fact that the marriage with Aisha had continued until the Prophet's death, when she had already turned eighteen and had therefore passed the age of puberty.

The court also rejects the woman's "public debate" argument. E.S. claimed to be an expert on the subject of Islam. As a result, the court replies, "she had to have been aware that her statements were partly based on untrue facts and apt to arouse (justified) indignation in others." The purpose of her statements was not to contribute to a public debate, the court declares, but rather to show "that Muhammad was not a worthy subject of worship."


Right, so because he carried on after she turned 18 then she's wrong to question what we'd call it... accounts seem to vary but apparently the marriage was consummated at around 9 or 10 years of age. (Sure standards varied back then, IIRC Mary married Jospeh back when she was a young teenager and he was an old man) But to fine someone for highlighting this or questioning what we'd call it today seems ridiculous and the argument highlighting that he carried on the marriage past 18 seems laughable.

I think we need stronger protections for freedom of speech tbh...
 
Who cares about Muhammad whoever he is?

Well that is offensive and if a local court were to fine you for saying it then the ECHR might well back them up

As for your question of who cares about him, a significant portion of the world's population, about a billion people or so.
 
Yea ok then. Keep posting your rubbish.

If you're not interested in the thread then don't post in it, you're hardly in a position to talk about posting rubbish given your first post in here. If you want to attempt to formulate a point of view or attempt to engage in some form of discussion then please do go ahead.
 
Would defamation of christ be treated in the same manner?

I'm not sure, for example the Council of Europe has been trying to move towards getting rid of blasphemy as an offence

http://assembly.coe.int/nw/xml/XRef/Xref-XML2HTML-en.asp?fileid=17569&lang=en
With regard to blasphemy, religious insults and hate speech against persons on the grounds of their religion, the state is responsible for determining what should count as criminal offences within the limits imposed by the case law of the European Court of Human Rights. In this connection, the Assembly considers that blasphemy, as an insult to a religion, should not be deemed a criminal offence.

On the other hand they seem to be concerned about causing offence if it is deemed "gratuitous" or an intentional insult etc..

https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-AD(2007)006-e

In a democratic society, religious groups must tolerate, as other groups must, critical public statements and debate about their activities, teachings and beliefs, provided that such criticism does not amount to intentional and gratuitous insult and does not constitute incitement to disturb the public peace or to discriminate against adherents of a particular religion.

States have an obligation to protect religious beliefs from unwarranted or offensive attacks, in order to guarantee religious peace

I guess if people rioted after watching the "offensive" and "gratuitous" Jerry Springer:The Opera then they'd be right behind Stewart Lee and Richard Thomas getting prosecuted.

I completely disagree with this notion of protection a belief from insult simply because there is a magical sky pixie attached to it, I don't think there should be any special status afforded to religious beliefs.

The potential for hostile reaction/violent tantrums of members of a religion certainly shouldn't be a special reason to offer extra protection/mollycoddling for them.

Dowie, do yourself (and all of us) a favour: stop posting drivel.

Do yourself a favour, jog on and stick to the simple/inane if you're not interested in the thread. I'm sure you can think of more things the youth should be nostalgic about or whatever floats your boat... it's silly to vent in a thread you have no interest in when clearly various others are engaging in the subject. You get salty at mundane things like reality TV shows and then you get salty at the opposite end of the spectrum, a serious topic about freedom of expression. I don't really know what your problem is but if you're not going to or aren't capable of adding anything constructive then why bother?
 
but you have a problem with something that happened 1500 years ago when the father of the bride/relatives, the non-muslims.. no one raised any objections.. perhaps it was the custom of the time.. but dont let facts get in the way..

Of course it was likely the custom at that time, why does that get in the way? Doesn't mean it is wrong to point out what we'd call it today.

Some ancient greeks used to engage in pederasty, that it was the custom at the time doesn't get in the way of commenting on it.

here's another fact - when people are usually paedophiles, they dont stop at one girl.. they have lots.. He had ONE..

So what?
 
child marriage was a norm of the society and of the time. you cant apply todays societal norms to 1500 years ago, dont be pathetic. but dont let common sense get in the way of your hate.

What is your point exactly? People are well aware that it was seemingly the custom at the time, why can’t it be commented upon.

Slavery was also cool back then? Are we not allowed to comment on or criticise that because social norms were different?

One of the main motivations for allowing freedom of speech was to enable criticism of religion, it seems like pretty legitemate criticism tbh...
 
When I explain why the rulings is what it is and you say you don't care... great argument.

He's not obliged to agree with the ruling or indeed the principles laid down by the Council of Europe with regards to blasphemy laws, it seems pretty silly tbh...
 
When pulled up in court the casual use of words is not acceptable.

If E.S. had specified, "had sex with a child" she would not have been wrong but she chose to use a label she was not capable of defending. Thus she lost.

I don't see why not, the court simply chose to pick a very narrow definition. It is a very odd ruling, there are plenty of living child sex offenders who will have been labeled "paedophile" in the press and who would have pretty much no chance of suing the various newspapers involved on the basis that they also sleep with adult women or that they only had sex with the one child etc...

Honestly you're clutching at straws trying to defend this.
 
No, the court used the correct definition, not some Daily Mail reading mouth frothing moron's definition.

They used a rather narrow definition. She's perfectly correct to point out that we'd call someone a paedophile today if they did what he did.
 
Fact remains it was a ridiculously silly ruling, she shouldn’t need to meet some narrow defenition - she questioned what we’d call it today and she is absolutely correct re: what we’d call that today. She didn’t make any specific medical/mental health claims.
 
You're not selling it.

E.S. was not in possession of enough facts to back up the statement she made when officially challenged.

It's a simple case in the end even if it does have divisive factors such as religion and child sex to provide a vast amount of distraction.

Well likewise, I don't think you're selling it either regardless of how many times you repeat the same thing in different coloured writing.

Yes she was in possession of enough facts, he literally ****ed a kid, we all know what we'd call that today.

There is an element of the silliness of the EC's guidelines here too but even given those the court was being silly with this insistence on choosing a narrow definition of the word and making the argument that she's labeled that as his general sexual preference and pointing out his other wives etc...

The additional silliness is thanks to this idea in general that freedom of speech within the council of Europe can be constrained in order for the purposes of "preventing disorder by safeguarding religious peace and protecting religious feelings". Frankly I think mocking of religious beliefs ought to be allowed but regardless that this person has portrayed him as someone unworthy of worship or has made a potentially provocative statement by highlighting something he is documented as doing and questioning what we'd call it today should still be allowed regardless of the silly restrictive nature of freedom of speech within the EC.

You or anyone who believes in all this prophet rubbish should wake up to the real world, not your make believe world. Ps. I hope this Mohamed whoever you think he is died a terrible death and was eaten by maggots in his grave.

I'm really not sure what you're smoking but your posts so far aren't making any sense. What do you think I believe exactly?
 
I can see no agreement possible here. There is no point in me repeating myself if people insist that the standard not used by any court is the one that should have been used.

But that isn't what is being insisted upon. I don't think that this narrow definition of paedophilia matters too much, she didn't specify that she meant some strict psychological definition simply asked what we'd call him today.

Here is a British Barrister who thinks the ruling is dreadful, he certainly isn't hung up on the fact she's technically got the labelling of "paedophile" wrong in a strict sense of the word:

https://www.scottishlegal.com/article/matthew-scott-ecthr-blasphemy-law-judgment-is-dreadful

The court considered that the right to freedom of religion under Article 9 included a right not to be seriously offended. Whilst the religious could not expect their beliefs to be exempt from all criticism (that’s generous):

“… the general requirement to ensure the peaceful enjoyment of the rights guaranteed under Article 9 to the holders of such beliefs including a duty to avoid as far as possible an expression that is, in regard to objects of veneration, gratuitously offensive to others and profane.”

“Where such expressions go beyond the limits of a critical denial of other people’s religious beliefs and are likely to incite religious intolerance, for example in the event of an improper or even abusive attack on an object of religious veneration, a State may legitimately consider them to be incompatible with respect for the freedom of thought, conscience and religion and take proportionate restrictive measures.”

The court seems here to be trying, rather clumsily, to tread a delicate line between upholding the right of member states to criminalise “improper and abusive attacks” on objects of veneration and asserting that they have a duty to do so. So far it might just be possible to view the judgment as that of a cautious court wishing to give Austria – with its particular and very dark history of religious bigotry – a large “margin of appreciation,” the discretion, as it were, to make and apply its own laws in its own way.

Unfortunately, such a generous view of the decision does not really stand up, because later on the judges seem to come down firmly in favour of member states having a duty to have such laws. The court, it noted

“had stated many times that in the context of religion member States had a duty to suppress certain forms of conduct or expression that were gratuitously offensive to others and profane.”

“There you are,” the Islamists will say, and they are saying it now, “the top court in Europe says you have a duty to suppress profanity.”

Well, it’s not quite as bad as that, is it? After all the court said that only “certain forms of conduct or expression” must be suppressed. Nice, polite arguments are fine, as long as they are not gratuitously offensive.

But that’s the problem with policing free speech.

I make a polite but powerful contribution to debate.

You speak bluntly and perhaps a little bit offensively.

She is gratuitously offensive, has committed blasphemy and must be hanged, or at least fined and/or imprisoned.

The reference to Muhammad’s marriage to a child bride, it seems, was “an abusive attack on the Prophet of Islam.”

Why should that make it criminal?

“The Court notes that the domestic courts extensively explained why they considered that the applicant’s statements had been capable of arousing justified indignation, namely that they had not been made in an objective manner aiming at contributing to a debate of public interest, but could only be understood as having been aimed at demonstrating that Muhammad was not a worthy subject of worship (see paragraph 22 above). The Court endorses this assessment.”

The court’s grasp of theology here is as pitiful as its exposition of the law. Muslims do not worship Muhammad – only Allah can be worshipped – although of course they venerate him.

More to the point, is it really “necessary in a democratic society” to impose a prohibition on attacking the character of a medieval warlord because to do so might suggest he is “not a worthy subject of worship?”


The court thought that:

The issue before the court therefore involves weighing up the conflicting interests of the exercise of two fundamental freedoms, namely the right of the applicant to impart to the public her views on religious doctrine on the one hand, and the right of others to respect for their freedom of thought, conscience and religion on the other.

This is legal legerdemain. The right to impart one’s views about a religion is a right to freedom of expression, a right expressly protected by Article 10, as well as a right to “manifest” one’s religion, a right protected by Article 9. The “right of others to respect for their freedom of thought conscience and religion” is very much wider than the right actually set out by Article 9:

“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.”

It is one thing to give religious people the right to think, express and practise their religion, to manifest it, to worship where and how they wish, and so on. But that is completely different from insisting that others must respect their religion, in the sense of not insulting it. That is not a right given by Article 9, and nor should it be. The court should not have conducted any “weighing up” of conflicting rights. Neither the Convention nor any other coherent principle demands that religious sensibilities should insulate religion from criticism, including mockery or insult.

Anyway let me just get some popcorn, I can see dowie getting bashed for being a Muslim.

I've got no idea what that other guy A2Z is on about, he's only made rather incoherent posts so far.
 
Daily Mail mouth frothers might, but that doesn't make it correct.

The general population would and that is why she was correct IMO. Regardless of whether she was technically correct or not it was still a terrible ruining.

But the real point is true Pedophilia was illegal in the prophet's time punishable by death, so it is unlikely he consummated his marriage until post-puberty, as was the norm, and therefore incredibly unliekly to be a pedophile. Let alone the exact ages are not exactly known, there is a some debate if she was actually between 16 and 18 when the marriage was consummated.

I wouldn’t say that’s the real point at all.
 
As I understand it she specifically referred to Mohammed as a paedophile, suggesting that his general sexual preference was for pre-pubescent children.

The report is available to read, you can go and see what she said. She asked what we'd call Mohammed today and suggested a paedophile. She's correct, perhaps not in a strict technical sense but in society in general, in terms of the common use of the word we'd call someone who ****ed a 9/10 year old a paedo. The fact they also ****ed adult women too doesn't really matter.

Similary Mohammed was just following the Bedouin tribal customs of the time. This offends our modern sensibilities but he was not necessarily a paedophile, though people who want to have a go at Islam like to say so, which isn't a legitimate exercise of free speech - it's an attempt to slur present day followers of Islam. People have a right to follow their religion in peace.

This is a freedom of speech issue, it is really silly to deny otherwise. It has nothing to do with any slurs relating to the present day followers of Islam. The only person being potentially insulted here is a dead warlord who lived many centuries ago and apparently ****ed a 9/10 year old. That some other people think some magical sky pixie decided he was special and talked to him shouldn't be a reason not to insult him. I mean that is what the ruling comes down to - if anything the ruling is the insulting thing for the followers of Islam as it is essentially saying they're so stupid and so hypersensitive/insecure with regards to their religion that any perceived insult to it can "disturb the religious peace". I'd find that rather patronising if I were a muslim as if I genuinely had faith that it was correct then I'd not need to be insecure about any criticism or perceived insults.
 
With one half of your brain you realise that paedophile is a broad modern slur that smears everyone associated with it. To the point where paedophiles with no crime to their name would rather live with their issues in silence than seek help.

And with the other half of your brain you declare it as being too sensitive and insecure if you defend against such a slur on the religion you follow.

The disassociation between those two thoughts is apparent.

I think you're perhaps projecting a bit... I'll leave your own issues with your brain etc.. to you.

You've ended up with essentially a straw man argument there, try to stick to what I've actually posted or ask clarification instead of engaging in rather unhelpful nonsense along this "one half of your brain...". I've not said that defending against a slur on a religion is being too sensitive and insecure. I'm referring to concerns re: disturbing the religious peace.

Yes paedophile is insulting in a modern context, though it is also quite rightly used in this context. She is quite correct in asserting that the answer to the question of what we'd call someone today who had sex with a 9/10 year old is a paedophile.

Pointing out this facile argument that technically paedophiles only have an interest in children and mohammed married other adult women etc.. doesn't change the truth of that statement.

E.S. was asked to defend her position and failed to do it twice. There is no such thing as free speech here or in the country in question so if you are incapable of getting legal advice before baiting the group you dislike then you shouldn't get into politics.

She could have baited Muslims, encouraged anti-Islamic feeling and done so completely legally if she had done her research properly. Her incompetence in checking the laws of her area is why she ended up in court and lost.

Failed to in the eyes of a court that has made a rather dubious ruling. This has little to do with your perception of her incompetence, you don't know that she isn't aware of Austria's dubious laws in this area, perhaps she disagrees with them and thus is perfectly willing to fight the case in the ECHR. It is frankly rather ridiculous that they even have a law covering this these days in the first place especially given previous guidance on blasphemy laws.

As for no such thing as freedom of speech, that isn't true, it is covered under Article 10 of the European convention of human rights. Granted it isn't as well protected as say the freedom of speech guaranteed to Americans under the US constitution but it certainly does exist and it is rather silly to claim otherwise.

We have successful religious and anti-religion agitators in this country and what they have in common is using vastly more careful language than their followers and getting legal advice.

In this country she'd what she did wouldn't have constituted an offence in the first place.
 
It was silly to think you had a point here. I mentioned a requirement for legal advice multiple times for good reason.

1) Free speech exactly as I said it has a lack of restrictions. You've brought up what we actually have which is exactly not that.
2) You've named the article which specifies categories of speech which speakers can be punished for.

It is entirely legal to punish speech to prevent disorder and protect the reputation and rights of others. As upheld in this case.

It was silly to think you had a point here in saying free speech doesn’t exist. Various countries have protections in place to protect free speech.

As for protecting the rights of others, that is stretching it a bit, the bloke concerned has been dead for centuries. As far as preventing disorder, this goes back to my previous point re: the court treating Muslims as so stupid and so hypersensitive/insecure with regards to their religion that any perceived insult to it can "disturb the religious peace".

Essentially they've claimed defamation on a rather dubious technicality, this excuse that because Mo shagged adult women too then it is wrong to state that he's a paedophile for shagging a 9/10 year old. The fact that you and one or two others is defending that perhaps just indicates how far gone you are in terms of being an apologist for Islam. In reality though she didn't specify any psychological claim, she simply asked what we'd call him today and she's correct in that sense as already pointed out. The second part is simply considering that muslims have potential to behave irrationally/engage in mindless violence over something like this. Frankly I don't think that the fact some people might get angry/upset over a perceived insult to their religion should be something countries prosecute over - this was a weak stance by the court and makes it look stupid internationally. As the Barrister who blogged on the case commented, other countries will now look to this case as an example that even the highest court in Europe enforces blasphemy laws - that will be great when Western Diplomats try to talk to the likes of Pakistan, Saudi etc.. over their backwards laws.

I think you're perhaps too far gone to see any sense here.
 
Substantial arrogance @dowie.

Again you repeat the same false reply despite me very clearly describing the difference between free speech, what we have and what you claimed I said.

No I just disagree with your statement, free speech does exist as already explained. It is both pointless and silly to claim otherwise or to attempt to make some non-point where you define free speech to include absolutely everything with no restrictions. It shouldn't even need to be explained that there are some limits to free speech, even in the US, it is a complete waste of time and detracts from the discussion but that is seemingly what you want to achieve.

Then the stretching required to decide I have a pro-religious stance. At worst I object to malicious interference in the lives of others and this is not a view exclusive to religious activities.

The only interference in the lives of others here is with respect to the woman being fined, which you still seem to rather foolishly support.

E.S. in this case had no motive of productive debate and was incapable of agitating within the law. She gets shut down twice entirely lawfully. Bemoaning relevant law which existed before her stunt is asinine.

You don't know that she had no motive of productive debate, you need to distinguish between someone holding a view you don't like and then making up silly assertions like that.

Yet I'm seeing you among others holding up this steaming turd of seeking to smear the living with a slur on the dead as a worthy example to defend with lashing of fearmongering that it means far more than telling someone to shut up and behave lawfully.

It is very much a good news article to see someone with a desire to encourage ill will trip over themselves.

No pedestals here for religious or anti-religious fanatics.

hmmm that's debatable, you're still defending this nonsense, shutting down criticism of religion with fines etc.. is ridiculous it is rather sad to see people so far gone that they defend it, especailly when using mental gymnastics to claim otherwise. I believe she still has a possible angle for appeal left, we'll have to see whether the ECHR can redeem itself.
 
I pointed out the legal restrictions on free speech in this two replies ago and you decide to say it back to me now for the second time as if you didn't understand the words and you were having an original thought.

Not at all, I'm pointing out the opposite. Stating free speech doesn't exist is rather silly/irrelevant. There are protections for free speech in various countries around the world, we both know this so I'm really not sure what point you were trying to make by stating it doesn't exist?

"herp derp you can't shout bomb in a theatre" etc.. ? Really original.

Intellectual dishonesty from @dowie because, who knows, when he says too far gone it sounds like a projection. The woman was very far from innocent and dishonestly broke local rules. If it was online it would be filed under trolling.

She wasn't "very far from innocent" and the local rules shouldn't really exist in a modern democracy. Arguably the ECHR should have given more weight to her right to free expression.

E.S. promoted an educational seminar of objectivity on religion and proceeded to pitch an anti-islamic agenda including claims she couldn't substantiate.

I love the way you try to frame in order to justify your mental gymnastics - the seminar was titled basic information on Islam and was held at the Freedom Party Institute, you'd have to be particularly stupid to assume there wouldn't be any criticism of Islam. You don't need to venerate Mo in order to be objective then again there isn't a legal obligation to be completely objective in the first place, she questioned what he would be called today and she was correct.

If a libertarian institute were to hold a "basic information on Communism" seminar would you be doing the same mental gymnastics if they then criticised Jo Stalin? Perhaps they could defame him by referring to him as a psychopath which could then be argued against as not being technically correct as he was enforcing an ideology when killing millions not suffering from mental illness.

If we strip out the lies of promoting an objective seminar and stick to claims that can be substantiated she's on legal ground to agitate. But that wasn't how it happened so there we are, deception and reaching for slurs are not a basis for productive debate.

Specifically what lies?

A major difference is that I recognised communication on this as being circular several posts ago but you see value in keeping it rolling, can you describe why you care for something you don't want to hear.

This is rather dishonest of you, I'm merely replying to your quotes where you've repeated the same stale arguments, I pointed out that we could agree to disagree several posts ago. You've since thrown in additional silliness like "there is no such thing as free speech" etc..
 
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