Electrician not providing certification

Mr. Peri Peri · 26 Sep 2017 at 14:10

Hi,

Looking for some advice.

I contacted an electrician via facebook having seen recommendations and had him quote to fit 6 LED downlights and a dimmer switch in our living room, and supply and fit 2 inline extractor fans for our bathrooms.

He has already done the LEDs and is returning this evening to do the extractor fans. He seemed trustworthy so I paid him in full on his first visit.

I'm a new homeowner and assumed that by hiring a qualified electrican the work would be certified. Our builder asked if I was getting a certificate for the installation, which prompted me to ask the electrican.

He's said he would "need to charge tax and VAT on top to get it certified" and that he had done the work "as a favour to me" - this is a bit weird as I don't even know the guy. In that case I may as well have just done the installation myself or had someone else do it for far less.

So, my questions are:

Should the guy be providing a certificate for this work?

What are the implications of not having the work certified?

I guess my inexperience is partly to blame and I should have asked this beforehand, but like I say I assumed by hiring a qualified electrican it would all be done 'proper'.

Thanks,

Phil

HeX · 26 Sep 2017 at 14:24

AFAIK any electrical work done on a bathroom requires a Part P certificate, so they should be submitting the paperwork to your local authority Building Control and issuing a certificate to yourself.

Also, never pay anyone anything until the work is completed to a standard you are happy with! There was nothing stopping the guy just disappearing after the first day, you're lucky he came back at all to fit the fans!

Mr. Peri Peri · 26 Sep 2017 at 14:31

HeX said:
AFAIK any electrical work done on a bathroom requires a Part P certificate, so they should be submitting the paperwork to your local authority Building Control and issuing a certificate to yourself.

Also, never pay anyone anything until the work is completed to a standard you are happy with! There was nothing stopping the guy just disappearing after the first day, you're lucky he came back at all to fit the fans!

He's from a local firm with a good reputation, I was confident he'd be back to finish the job or I wouldn't have done that. Although I won't be doing it again as I have no leverage now really.

He convinced me that the existing fans (which are units built in the ceiling) should be replaced with in-line fans that sit up in the loft as they would be more powerful, quieter etc (and more expensive...) although now suspect this was to get around the certification issue as you point out.

Although the fact that he is going to have to remove the existing fans and presumably re-route the wiring up to the loft... would that still class as work in the bathroom?

HeX · 26 Sep 2017 at 14:37

If all the wiring and extractor itself is in your loft then it gets around the bathroom issue, and the lighting in the living area should be non-notifiable if they've just added it into the previous circuit.

Mr. Peri Peri · 26 Sep 2017 at 14:41

HeX said:
If all the wiring and extractor itself is in your loft then it gets around the bathroom issue, and the lighting in the living area should be non-notifiable if they've just added it into the previous circuit.

Ok, that is the case with the new extractor, although he will be removing the old one to replace it which is currently a ceiling unit in the bathroom.

The lighting in the living area was 6 LED downlights replacing 1 ceiling rose, so all in to the existing circuit. He changed the existing single switch to a 2 gang dimmer, but again it's all powered off the same circuit.

So if this is non-notifiable, does this mean there are no implications from not having a certificate?

I'd read that not having the certificates could be an issue when it came to selling the house etc but perhaps that wouldn't apply with these specific circumstances?

Thanks for the info.

HeX · 26 Sep 2017 at 14:48

There's only certain work that has to be notified, usually major changes (fuse box replacement for example)/additions, and work in special areas (usually those containing water, kitchens, bathrooms, etc). Everything else is non-notifiable so no certificates required; saves people having to notify for every little change like replacing a plug socket, new ceiling rose etc.

http://electrical.theiet.org/building-regulations/part-p/faqs.cfm

Mr. Peri Peri · 26 Sep 2017 at 15:00

HeX said:
There's only certain work that has to be notified, usually major changes (fuse box replacement for example)/additions, and work in special areas (usually those containing water, kitchens, bathrooms, etc). Everything else is non-notifiable so no certificates required; saves people having to notify for every little change like replacing a plug socket, new ceiling rose etc.

http://electrical.theiet.org/building-regulations/part-p/faqs.cfm

Thanks - I was reading a similar FAQ and it seems the work I've had done isn't notifiable.

But then there is BS7671 and the Minor Works Certificate which seems like it would apply to this work and provide evidence of compliance. Without this, are any issues likely to arise when selling the house?

I'm also wondering if there could be any insurance implications? The Minor Works Certificate is the evidence the installation is safe and has been tested, but I don't have that.

EDIT:

Surely it is in his interests to issue a Minor Works Certificate anyway - he was the last one to work on that circuit and provides protection to him in that the circuit was tested and left in a safe manner. If someone else was to do something to that circuit which caused a problem down the line, he'd have nothing to back up his work?

Adam_151 · 26 Sep 2017 at 18:13

I've skim read the thread, so if I miss anything, then I apologise. It seems that you have identified the work as non-notifiable, and I would agree as no new points were added within the bathroom or new circuits added.

Onto the issue of certification, a minor works cert should have been issued (or two if the work was on two different circuits), if he has not issued this, then there is a chance that he hasn't done the required testing. As to lack of a minor works certificiate,if you declare that electrical work has been carried out on the question sheet you get from the solitor at house sale time (btw, remember that when answering it is non-notificable work, so if the question asks if notification has been carried out, that would be N/A, rather than no, I cant remember the wording of the question). Anyway there is a slight chance you might be asked for certification, in which case just tell them its not available, either they will shut up and go away, or they will try and sell you an insurance policy, its a little bit of a stubling block, but not really a headache.

I'd be more interested in the quality of the work, than the lack of a MWC, but perhaps you might not wish to use the same chap again.

Beer_MonsterUK · 26 Sep 2017 at 20:49

As posted above, it looks like all the work falls outside being notifiable. Regardless, technically, he should be issuing Minor Works Certs for the alteration to an existing circuit. If he's accredited to an electrical body, eg NICEIC, NAPIT, etc then he has a requirement to issue them, but if it's just a fiddle job, then he'd probably overlook them. They're just a 1 page cert detailing the tests of the altered circuit.

HardwareGeek · 26 Sep 2017 at 23:24

Contacted him through facebook? was it his work / business page or personal page, maybe if personal he is doing the work off the books etc so thats why no paperwork etc

Often customers will want things done cheap as poss then at the end ask for paperwork etc, if its being done cheap there is usually a reason, i.e no paperwork meaning he hasn't paid to be part p registered etc, or if no testing at all, hasn't got the cost of buying and calibrating a test meter etc or just saving the time to do the testing and paperwork at the end of the job

The issue with the fans and part p maybe the reason but its also good advice inline fans are far superior to axial ceiling fans most of the extra cost would have been parts so don't think he will have said to it bump the price up etc

Mr. Peri Peri · 27 Sep 2017 at 16:38

Adam_151 said:
I've skim read the thread, so if I miss anything, then I apologise. It seems that you have identified the work as non-notifiable, and I would agree as no new points were added within the bathroom or new circuits added.

Onto the issue of certification, a minor works cert should have been issued (or two if the work was on two different circuits), if he has not issued this, then there is a chance that he hasn't done the required testing. As to lack of a minor works certificiate,if you declare that electrical work has been carried out on the question sheet you get from the solitor at house sale time (btw, remember that when answering it is non-notificable work, so if the question asks if notification has been carried out, that would be N/A, rather than no, I cant remember the wording of the question). Anyway there is a slight chance you might be asked for certification, in which case just tell them its not available, either they will shut up and go away, or they will try and sell you an insurance policy, its a little bit of a stubling block, but not really a headache.

I'd be more interested in the quality of the work, than the lack of a MWC, but perhaps you might not wish to use the same chap again.

Definitely not interested in using him again - not impressed at all with the quality or care of the work he has done (and that's just the visible parts, so I am keen to have the circuit tested).

Beer_MonsterUK said:
As posted above, it looks like all the work falls outside being notifiable. Regardless, technically, he should be issuing Minor Works Certs for the alteration to an existing circuit. If he's accredited to an electrical body, eg NICEIC, NAPIT, etc then he has a requirement to issue them, but if it's just a fiddle job, then he'd probably overlook them. They're just a 1 page cert detailing the tests of the altered circuit.

I'm going to have a chat with him once he's finished - the firm is STROMA registered so I believe he should be testing and issuing a MWC.

HardwareGeek said:
Contacted him through facebook? was it his work / business page or personal page, maybe if personal he is doing the work off the books etc so thats why no paperwork etc

Often customers will want things done cheap as poss then at the end ask for paperwork etc, if its being done cheap there is usually a reason, i.e no paperwork meaning he hasn't paid to be part p registered etc, or if no testing at all, hasn't got the cost of buying and calibrating a test meter etc or just saving the time to do the testing and paperwork at the end of the job

The issue with the fans and part p maybe the reason but its also good advice inline fans are far superior to axial ceiling fans most of the extra cost would have been parts so don't think he will have said to it bump the price up etc

The firm consists of 2 guys. The business page says "contact X or Y for a quote" so I contacted Y (via his personal facebook) saying I needed an electrican to quote for the job. Both X and Y came round to price the job up in the firms van.

After some more investigation, it looks like the firm is registered with X and Y works for him. Y has been the guy turning up to do the work (in the firms van with the stickers stating Part P compliance, STROMA registered etc) but when I questioned the cert he said he was "doing it as a favour to me" - don't know where he's got that idea from because I don't know the guy, I just asked him to quote for a job, but appears like he's trying to do it as a side job.

As far as I'm concerned the firm turned up to quote, he's been using the firms van and tools to do it, the firm (and therefore the registered electrican Y who's firm it is) is still responsible for the work and it should be tested and issued an MWC as per their registration.

So I'll give Y the opportunity to resolve the situation before contacting X, and failing that report them to STROMA I think.

I paid him £450 to fit 6 LED downlights and a dimmer switch, and to supply and fit 2 in-line extractor fans (which was basically a straight swap rather than a new installation), so it's not even like it was particularly cheap or 'mates rates'.

Beer_MonsterUK · 27 Sep 2017 at 17:14

I'm not sure why he's so resistant to issuing a minor works cert. They're literally a 1 sheet cert and easy to complete. I'm pretty sure STROMA will require them to issue certs and should only cost him a few pence.

If he still resistant, I wouldn't hesitate to contact STROMA and ask why a registered member isn't issuing cert's. I'm pretty sure that will get his attention, just do it after the work is complete.

The only reason I can think of is that he doing it on a cash in hand basis and doesn't want to declare it to the tax man and by issuing the cert he can't do that easily, but that certainly isn't your concern.

Mr. Peri Peri · 27 Sep 2017 at 17:27

Beer_MonsterUK said:
I'm not sure why he's so resistant to issuing a minor works cert. They're literally a 1 sheet cert and easy to complete. I'm pretty sure STROMA will require them to issue certs and should only cost him a few pence.

If he still resistant, I wouldn't hesitate to contact STROMA and ask why a registered member isn't issuing cert's. I'm pretty sure that will get his attention, just do it after the work is complete.

The only reason I can think of is that he doing it on a cash in hand basis and doesn't want to declare it to the tax man and by issuing the cert he can't do that easily, but that certainly isn't your concern.

That's what I think is going on. When I asked him about the cert he said he was doing it as a favour to me and to issue a cert "he would have to charge tax and VAT on top". At no point did he say the price was excluding VAT or anything like that, and as far as I'm concerned it's not my problem.

I left it after that and was going to bring it up when he's finished so he actually completes the work. That's if he comes back at all, I was really starting to lose my patience last night.

He put big dirty hand prints over a freshly painted wall (which the builder had just finished patching up and painting after he made a mess chasing it out last time), over our upstairs landing wall and on the bathroom wall. He fitted grills that look like they've been removed from another house and kicked down the street and then installed in ours, didn't fix one of the fans down properly so it was vibrating on the joist in the ceiling above, I could go on unfortunately.

Lessons have been learnt from my side anyway, that's for sure. Appreciate all the replies and info in this thread, thanks guys

TallPaul1878 · 27 Sep 2017 at 18:04

Yup, he did it as a foreigner. £450 is a lot of money to pay someone to do that kind of work "off the books"

I'm a spark myself. Replacing parts, doing work on existing circuits is not notifiable. It's within reason that a home owner would want to replace items, add downlights like yourself.

Had he installed say a new shower circuit then that would be notifiable. I don't see the problem why he won't issue a "minor works" certificate. It's literally 10 minutes work for him to give you peace of mind.

The electrician's tax arrangements are not your concern you will not be in any kind of trouble if you paid him in good faith and he kept it off the books

Lumeycom · 27 Sep 2017 at 23:33

I had to google Stroma and I’m a spark (thankfully not domestic).

Minor works sounds reasonable.

Has he told you that he’ll have to charge tax etc in writing/email? If so ask him for the relevant (and required) paperwork or you’ll be having a chat with Stroma and HMRC. Feking hate people like this. If you contacted a mate for a hobble/foreigner then fair enough but you contacted a company!

Psycho Sonny · 28 Sep 2017 at 10:49

cash in hand jobs tend to bite you when there are issues with the work.

i'd dob him in to the company you got him from as you said it was local. although they will all be at it. so you could dob him in to HMRC. that way he will think twice before doing shoddy jobs in future.

Hagar · 28 Sep 2017 at 11:35

Just think of yourself as an employer, if he had had an accident at work or he caused a fire, or damage to your property, would your insurance have covered this?

The black economy is generally not worth it. OK you got a cheap job with reasonable standards of work (I assume it meets relevant regulations), but it will bite you if when you sell on, a sharp surveyor wants the paperwork.

For 20% saving or less over a properly contracted job, I would not have bothered. Interior painting, putting up shelving etc. possibly, but not much more than that.