Elusive fusion reactors to be commercialised by 2025-2030... Or so they say

Can you provide me with numbers and sources? I was under the impression that it was an honest "total output/total input" figure and I couldn't find anything to contradict that let alone to say that the stated figure of 0.67 was actually about 0.01 (as you claimed).

Also, the result I referred to wasn't "at the moment". It was 20 years ago.

I'm also not saying it was near q=1. It isn't. 0.67 to 1 is a very large gap in this context. As well as that, it was for about a second. q>1 would be an important milestone, but it would still be a long way from an actual power station for the reasons PlacidCasual mentions above.

This is a good one...it specifically mentions the 0.67 you quoted.


In short, it goes on about the difference between what some scientists are quoting, Qplasma, and the meaningful figure of Qtotal. The scientists aren't lying, but in my humble opinion they are being highly deceptive, and the politicians will not be impressed when they discover that fact.
 
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Pretty big for a long list of other things too. It's made from fairly common materials and it's quite easy to make and it's superconducting at up to 127C at normal earth atmospheric pressure. That's not how any known superconductor works. Not even close. If it's true it's a whole new type of thing with a list of uses so long it would be a book. And probably more uses that nobody's thought of yet because nothing like it has existed.

We'll probably find out if it's true quite soon because they've published some details. Enough details for people to start testing.
Cross post but....


Seems promising
 
I'm always incredibly suspicious of output from China's universities sadly (I'm also somewhat suspicious of any university tbf when volume is more important to them than quality), hopefully it's genuine.
 
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Peer-review is a minimal part of the scientific process in fact the trend now is to do away with it all together. It serves mostly as the lowest level of proof reading paper. Ensuring there is a good English and logical structure/messages about its most important function, along with a rough analysis of methodology or results to check for glaringly obvious errors.

The Scientific methodology doesn't rely on peer-review, it relies on a process whereby valid scientific findings are repeatedly, verified, hypotheses are developed, supported, reformulated or rejected. Over time, by countless independent scientist, often with conflicting opinions and hypotheses, a more coherence hypothesis with well grounded theoretical and empirical backing develops, and eventually might become an accepted theory .

I see D.P. continues to flip flop as to whether peer review matters or not.

Why don't you write a scientific article that refutes the author well evidenced findings, and get it peer reviewed and published. Then i will consider your opinion to be valid.

I am not a rocket scientist, no, but i am a scientist with a PHD, dozens of publications and multiple patents. What are your qualifications for understanding scientific publications ?

And I'm not sure how many of d.p's patents are for anything of commerical use/ value.

He currently works for a large multinational tech company dodging tax in Switzerland I believe after the traffic light startup he worked at before when bankrupt.

Frankly anyone who thinks batteries can solve the intermittency issues with renewables with current technology is a clown that hasn't grasped the issues of scale involved.

Commercially viable Fusion on earth may never be realised but we don't know what the limits are of what might be possible.

The payback for commercially viable fusion would be world changing as well.

Hence why we should, as a species, be concentrating a lot of of our resources to both the development of the energy storage resources technologies and new possible ways of energy generation.
 
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How in the world are we gona get from a huge shortfall on days of low renewable by 50x
The answer was Nuclear but its too late now, to slow to build, and vilified.

That article is too vague to be true.

Some light reading for you on one Mr Mark Jacobson the lead author for that article that D.P was relying on so much....

The Stanford University academic has a compelling pitch: the world can rapidly get 100% of its energy from renewable sources with, as the title of his new book says, “no miracles needed”.

So he has a perverse incentive to make outrageous claims to help sell his book...

Always check what financial incentives 'scientists' have to reach a certain conclusion..

So let's move onto the contentious subject of 'peer review' and whether Jacobson’s peers agree with his claims...

Jacobson’s claim is a big one. He is not just talking about a shift to 100% renewable electricity, but all energy – and fossil fuels still provide about 80% of that today. Jacobson has scores of academic papers to his name and his work has been influential in policies passed by cities, states and countries around the world targeting 100% green power.
He is also controversial, not least for pursuing a $10m lawsuit against researchers who claimed his work was flawed, which he later dropped.


Seems like they're might be some issue with his claims.....

Mark Jacobson, a Stanford professor who sued a critic and a scientific journal for $10 million but then dropped the case, is appealing a recent court order that he pay the journal’s publisher more than $400,000 in legal fees.



Seems as though his critics have some 'credentials' of their own...

Renewable Rap Battle: A scathing critique of Mark Jacobson’s 100% renewable grid proposal​

Some policy recommendations attain notoriety because they’re simple, and because they appeal to the hopes of people who support them. The thankless work of a “critic”, dating back to ancient Greece where the word was derived (κριτικός), is to judge if these policies make sense. Modern day energy critics separate innovations from illusions, and steer us towards actionable, achievable solutions.
In 2015, Stanford’s Mark Jacobson and three other researchers published a paper on a low-cost solution to the US grid which would rely 100% on wind, hydro and solar power by 2050. Their 2015 paper is an updated version of an article they first published in Scientific American in 2009 12 . You may have read about their all-renewable US grid idea, or their recent work applying the same concept to 139 countries. Many media outlets and energy blogs cite Jacobson’s proposal as a vision of a possible renewable energy future, if only we just would reach for it.
In 2017, the battle began. A large team of scientists and researchers from US universities, think tanks and research labs published a paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 13 which (there is no other way to put this) savaged the Jacobson proposal. It’s worth reviewing some of the arguments in their rebuttal, since they illustrate the challenges and complexity of designing real-world energy solutions. While 21 researchers participated in the PNAS paper, for simplicity, we refer to it here as the “Clack rebuttal”. Here’s their overarching conclusion on Jacobson’s proposal:
“The authors claim to have shown that their proposed system would be low cost and that there are no economic barriers to the implementation of their vision. However, the modeling errors described, the speculative nature of the terawatt-scale storage technologies envisioned, the theoretical nature of the solutions proposed to handle critical stability aspects of the system, and a number of unsupported assumptions, including a cost of capital that is one-third to onehalf lower than that used in practice in the real world, undermine that claim.”
Affiliations of the 21 authors participating in the Clack rebuttal

  • Carnegie Institution for Science (Department of Global Ecology)

  • Carnegie Mellon University (Department of Engineering and Public Policy; Tepper School of Business)

  • Columbia University (Center for Global Energy Policy)

  • Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

  • NOAA Earth System Research Laboratory

  • Stanford University (Department of Energy Resources Engineering; Management Science and Engineering Department; Precourt Energy Efficiency Center)

  • UC Berkeley (Energy and Resources Group; Goldman School of Public Policy; Renewable Energy Laboratory)

  • UC Irvine (Department of Earth System Science)

  • UC San Diego (Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering; School of Global Policy and Strategy)

  • Univ. of Colorado (Inst. for Research in Environmental Sciences; Renewable and Sustainable Energy Institute)

  • University of Vermont (Electrical Engineering and Complex Systems Center)

  • Uppsala University (Department of Physics and Astronomy)

  • Brookings Institution and the Council on Foreign Relations

 
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This is a good one...it specifically mentions the 0.67 you quoted.


Thank you. That gives numbers and sort of a source in that the presenter in the video doesn't give sources but is a relevant expert.

Disappointing. I thought the JET result wasn't creative accounting.

In short, it goes on about the difference between what some scientists are quoting, Qplasma, and the meaningful figure of Qtotal. The scientists aren't lying, but in my humble opinion they are being highly deceptive, and the politicians will not be impressed when they discover that fact.

I don't think there's much risk of politicians discovering anything much about anything other than politics.
 
Disappointing. I thought the JET result wasn't creative accounting.

It is disappointing. It's still a long way away, and still there is doubt we can ever make it work (in any of the forms it's in now). I kinda think we are waiting for a Musk to come along and look at it in a completely different way.
 
Some light reading for you on one Mr Mark Jacobson the lead author for that article that D.P was relying on so much....



So he has a perverse incentive to make outrageous claims to help sell his book...

Always check what financial incentives 'scientists' have to reach a certain conclusion..

So let's move onto the contentious subject of 'peer review' and whether Jacobson’s peers agree with his claims...




Seems like they're might be some issue with his claims.....





Seems as though his critics have some 'credentials' of their own...

Renewable Rap Battle: A scathing critique of Mark Jacobson’s 100% renewable grid proposal​

Some policy recommendations attain notoriety because they’re simple, and because they appeal to the hopes of people who support them. The thankless work of a “critic”, dating back to ancient Greece where the word was derived (κριτικός), is to judge if these policies make sense. Modern day energy critics separate innovations from illusions, and steer us towards actionable, achievable solutions.
In 2015, Stanford’s Mark Jacobson and three other researchers published a paper on a low-cost solution to the US grid which would rely 100% on wind, hydro and solar power by 2050. Their 2015 paper is an updated version of an article they first published in Scientific American in 2009 12 . You may have read about their all-renewable US grid idea, or their recent work applying the same concept to 139 countries. Many media outlets and energy blogs cite Jacobson’s proposal as a vision of a possible renewable energy future, if only we just would reach for it.
In 2017, the battle began. A large team of scientists and researchers from US universities, think tanks and research labs published a paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 13 which (there is no other way to put this) savaged the Jacobson proposal. It’s worth reviewing some of the arguments in their rebuttal, since they illustrate the challenges and complexity of designing real-world energy solutions. While 21 researchers participated in the PNAS paper, for simplicity, we refer to it here as the “Clack rebuttal”. Here’s their overarching conclusion on Jacobson’s proposal:
“The authors claim to have shown that their proposed system would be low cost and that there are no economic barriers to the implementation of their vision. However, the modeling errors described, the speculative nature of the terawatt-scale storage technologies envisioned, the theoretical nature of the solutions proposed to handle critical stability aspects of the system, and a number of unsupported assumptions, including a cost of capital that is one-third to onehalf lower than that used in practice in the real world, undermine that claim.”
Affiliations of the 21 authors participating in the Clack rebuttal

  • Carnegie Institution for Science (Department of Global Ecology)

  • Carnegie Mellon University (Department of Engineering and Public Policy; Tepper School of Business)

  • Columbia University (Center for Global Energy Policy)

  • Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

  • NOAA Earth System Research Laboratory

  • Stanford University (Department of Energy Resources Engineering; Management Science and Engineering Department; Precourt Energy Efficiency Center)

  • UC Berkeley (Energy and Resources Group; Goldman School of Public Policy; Renewable Energy Laboratory)

  • UC Irvine (Department of Earth System Science)

  • UC San Diego (Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering; School of Global Policy and Strategy)

  • Univ. of Colorado (Inst. for Research in Environmental Sciences; Renewable and Sustainable Energy Institute)

  • University of Vermont (Electrical Engineering and Complex Systems Center)

  • Uppsala University (Department of Physics and Astronomy)

  • Brookings Institution and the Council on Foreign Relations

I have no comments that wouldn't start a boring Internet fight with those who feel they are superior, so I will just say Thankyou for pointing out the obvious and taking the time to post all of that.
 
Whilst it's a great technical achievement it's proof of concept, it's so low energy that it would only be able to boil some water, and I swear I read somewhere that the pellet that is require to be shot takes up more energy to be made than is released. (but don't quote me on that)

All in all, it's sensationalism but at least they are making progress however small.
 
The actual record for fusion is 0.67 with the tokamak at JET. That was an actual measure, i.e. total in and total out. I think you're thinking of the...creative accounting...shenanigans with the National Ignition Facility.
Iirc the "best" "proposed"* solution but never got built was the expansion of operation gnome, set of a thermonuclear bomb underground and then use a geothermal set up.

Gnome was just a very small fission bomb iirc but the cavity was still hot months later.

*I don't think it was ever serious for energy more for making isotopes.
 
Seems like now every couple of months a new discovery, now thanks to AI.

Researchers tested the algorithm on a real reactor, the DIII-D National Fusion Facility in San Diego. They saw that their AI-based system could control the power being pumped into the reactor and the shape of the plasma to keep the swirling particles in check.
Co-author Azarakhsh Jalalvand said in a statement that the success of the AI model comes from the fact that it was trained on real data from previous fusion experiments, rather than theoretical physics models.

 
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So is probably a good way to investigate. The quality of the fuel source and its shape and timescale of the reactions are so small that it's extremely difficult to try and figure what ignition is not achieved or when ignition is not sustained. After the Berkeley breakthrough that had ignition, they created another two fuel capsules that they thought had the exact same properties as their successful attempt and they these two had no ignition so as humans we are missing data and knowledge as to what is going wrong and perhaps AI supercomputers can aid in working with real time data at this timescale.



The other issue of course is that fusion is rare even in nature, they say the Sunnis a fusion reactor and actually fusion is only happening in the sun at a microscopic level, even inside the sun fusion reactions are very rare and while they happen often enough it's still extremely rare given the amount of gravity and the amount of fuel source
 
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