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Enabling fTPM can cause stuttering on some Ryzen systems

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Couldn't see a thread for this (apologies if there is) but the more exposure the better. You won't know if you have it unless you have fTPM enabled (so likely 1.2.0.3 Patch C or higher AGESA which had it enabled by default in prep for Windows 11 installations).

Some examples of what it looks like:





The main thread on the subject is here: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1353904-amd-ftpm-causing-random-stuttering/

There is also a 56 page discussion on the Lenovo forums for its laptops suffering the issue: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Gaming-Laptops/Legion-5P-15ARH05H-micro-stutters/m-p/5067079?page=1

Below I will try to give some info that I know to be correct:

1: Disabling fTPM fixes the issue completely.

2: People originally said buying a physical TPM also fixed it but then reports days later says it still happens.

3: The frequency can vary. People can go days without a stutter but unless fTPM is disabled it will happen. Usually they say 1-2 stutters a day.

4: There has been some massive confusion about how to disable fTPM from people saying "My ASUS BIOS doesn't allow it". This is simply not true. Every board manufacturer to my knowledge allows TPM to be disabled. For ASUS you go to Advanced > Trusted Computing > Security Device Support > Set to Disable. You do not actually have to be in the AMD fTPM configuration menu at all (which is where the confusion has arisen).

5: At first people were blaming Microsoft but as more users had the issue they also stated it happens on Linux. Putting the issue either in the hands of AMD or board manufacturers.

6: ASUS seems to be the most effected by this (but it is likely the most popular brand so hard to say). I've read reports from every brand.

7: Right now it's 50/50 on if this is a CPU hardware fault or software fault. The most damning evidence was something I found on the guru3d forums to support a faulty CPU:

"the forced/default tpm config in the latest bios is exposing it because of periodic validation colliding with a correctable bus error, which Ryzen cpu's have higher than the industry average of. since the ftpm fires a locking interrupt IO delays until the interrupt service succeeds."

Nobody else has a fix besides disabling fTPM (now no periodic validation will happen) so it doesn't show the hardware issue (giving credibility to this evaluation). However, a user that posted one of the above videos said he tried 3 different Ryzen CPUs in the same board and all had the same issue. It would be very unlucky to have 3 faulty CPUs.

8: Installing and running Windows 11 is still possible. You enable fTPM to install Windows 11 and after install, go into BIOS and disable it again. Updates still work. However, Valorant on Windows 11 will then not work as it requires TPM to be enabled.
 
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I have some theories about why it happens but trying to get people to test it is proving a problem. People are either happy with just disbaling fTPM or don't want to change a working system which I understand.

The first question is, why does it happen to some people and not others? I stumbled upon a thread on the MS forums about a certificate URL issue that happens with AMD fTPM: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/an...ent-id-86.html?page=1&pageSize=10&sort=oldest and a related reddit thread about securing hardware with fTPM: https://www.reddit.com/r/Intune/comments/qiejcb/amd_ftpm_problem_with_autopilot_preprovisioning/

This seems to happen with systems experiencing the stutter. What I think is happening: The system periodically checks for the certificate but since it can't get a response from the server, it hangs that process for a second and that causes the stutter until it fails. Would explain why no fTPM = no stutter. No check has to happen.

It could just be something as simple as different router firewalls are stopping the requests to/from the servers or it's more kind on different NICs who knows. Actually while I have you here @Raiden85 you could easily prove/disprove that NIC idea. Whichever NIC you use on your Formula, can you try the other for awhile and see what happens for a couple days? Think of it as helping mankind. :D

Anyway, it might be fixed already. I say might because that Microsoft thread said the certificate fix was included in a Windows 11 dev build from November 15th 2021. That should mean if my idea is correct, whenever these insider preview/dev builds get global roll outs for the general public it's all fixed... fingers crossed. By that I mean if the system doesn't complain about certificates erroring out then the check can't time out and fail, thus no stutter.

As said at the start trying to get people to install a dev build of Windows 11 for an already working system with fTPM disabled to test a theory from someone on the internet isn't easy.

I'm probably like totally wrong but eventually if you keep throwing shots out you'll land one.
 
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News to me, I've been running a hardware tpm for months this is the first of me hearing about this...

The problem is trying to get reports of this is really difficult. What information to trust and what not to trust.

For example I've read countless people rage and being like "GOD YOU CAN'T DISABLE FTPM ON ASUS IT'S MESSED UP!!!!!". In fact you can. So if someone like that said "my physical tpm module fixed it" I'm unlikely to believe them. You then have people who might have actually installed a tpm module but not configured the BIOS to actually use it... yes that happens. Someone on the Linus forum couple days ago seemed to have their head screwed on and says it did for them so who knows.

Just didn't want people to rush out and buy a tpm module so I still stand by that statement for now.

Anyway a general update on the situation. Someone trying to farm karma or whatever on the AMD reddit posted the toms guide article (1 whole week after it got published lol) and it seems to have blown up with 1.3k upvotes. This karma farming attempt seems to have got the right people noticing.

W63yqKh.png


Coincidentally ASUS released AGESA 1.2.0.6b today so maybe that has some fix in it. No reports for or against this fixing the problem but I highly doubt it does, way too soon. I'll update in a couple of days if any pertinent info is revealed.
 
I don't appear to have an option to disable fTPM. I can only select discrete fTPM module, which I'm assuming is the closest thing to disabling it?

From my OP.

4: There has been some massive confusion about how to disable fTPM from people saying "My ASUS BIOS doesn't allow it". This is simply not true. Every board manufacturer to my knowledge allows TPM to be disabled. For ASUS you go to Advanced > Trusted Computing > Security Device Support > Set to Disable. You do not actually have to be in the AMD fTPM configuration menu at all (which is where the confusion has arisen).
 
Thank you, I should have read your post more thoroughly. Apologies.

I'll look into my bios for that. I was (like many) looking into the fTPM menu.

No problem. If you want to know if this is likely your issue this seems to be a decent way of knowing.

1: Open event viewer and wait for it to load fully (5 seconds or so)

2: Under the error section you should see "CertificateServicesClient-CertEnroll" and double click it

SPYOMWS.png


3: Verify an event id 86 was logged (most likely at system startup time).

JU1OKeN.png


If you don't see this event id 86 you likely have another issue.
 
@Jay343434 Yeah if you disabled it that error won't show up now and your issue should also be resolved.

While I have you can you check your event viewer for this specific event id related to fast startup when you switch the PC on (if you have it enabled ofcourse): https://i.imgur.com/FD5gzEI.png

No matter what I do on this Dark Hero board I always apparently fail fast startup.
 
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