EV general discussion

[Conscript]

People seem to be missing out on one of the biggest 're-filling issues' what people now do a 'splash-n-dash' where you divert out of your way to a fuel station pop £10 in just to get you to where you are going, can't do that in a BEV. Even a Tesla Model 3 on a Mk3 Supercharger would take 6 minutes to add 70-90 miles of range from a low state of charge. I mean can you imagine the terrible inconvenience of waiting for 6 minutes to add enough range for an entire days worth of use for more than the majority of people.

The other massive issue facing the popularity of BEV take up will be the huge amount of destination chargers that will be in almost every parking structure, supermarket, gym, train station, work place, and even the local pubs. Where on your visit you can add some charge at little to no cost, while you complete the activity that you went to that place for in the first place, how stupid is that, it'll never work I tell you!!! Finishing work getting back to your car with a full 'tank' or coming out of the gym after a workout having only added 28 miles of range, only 5x the amount you need to get home again, utterly daft.

You can tell the majority of people posting in this thread, have never actually researched BEV's let alone driven or owned one.

It's weird isn't it? People focus on the limited overall range of current BEVs as a reason to dismiss them entirely. I get that for a minority, a 200 mile range might not be adequate, but that's 200 miles of range, ready to go, every single morning....more than enough for the vast majority of use cases.

Also, this weird all or nothing approach that if a BEV isn't practical for everyone, then it can't be practical for anyone. Many families run two cars, but theres nothing to say you can't also run a traditional ICE vehicle for those longer trips if needed, and use a BEV for the usually more inefficient, short range stuff.

 

[mjt]

It's weird isn't it? People focus on the limited overall range of current BEVs as a reason to dismiss them entirely. I get that for a minority, a 200 mile range might not be adequate, but that's 200 miles of range, ready to go, every single morning....more than enough for the vast majority of use cases.

Also, this weird all or nothing approach that if a BEV isn't practical for everyone, then it can't be practical for anyone. Many families run two cars, but theres nothing to say you can't also run a traditional ICE vehicle for those longer trips if needed, and use a BEV for the usually more inefficient, short range stuff.

100% this.

There’s no way we could live with the i3 as our only car, but thankfully we have a second, larger car for trips over 60 miles

 

[Malevolence]

but that's 200 miles of range, ready to go, every single morning

Only it's not is it? I live in a mid-terrace with on street parking and 99% of the time I can't even park outside my own house, and 50% of the time I can't even park in the same street. So, where do I, and the myriad others in the same situation, get this magic 200 miles range from every single morning when there's no way to charge? Don't say public charging points either, the nearest charging points of any flavour are a mile away and on the forecourt of a BMW dealership that closes before I get home.

 

[Journey]

Only it's not is it? I live in a mid-terrace with on street parking and 99% of the time I can't even park outside my own house, and 50% of the time I can't even park in the same street. So, where do I, and the myriad others in the same situation, get this magic 200 miles range from every single morning when there's no way to charge? Don't say public charging points either, the nearest charging points of any flavour are a mile away and on the forecourt of a BMW dealership that closes before I get home.

So don't buy a BEV then.

Not having access to off-street parking is going to be like living in a bad mobile or broadband coverage area is now, it will devalue the area until the street furniture is in place to assist.

 

[Conscript]

Also, this weird all or nothing approach that if a BEV isn't practical for everyone, then it can't be practical for anyone.

And right on cue....

Only it's not is it? I live in a mid-terrace with on street parking and 99% of the time I can't even park outside my own house, and 50% of the time I can't even park in the same street. So, where do I, and the myriad others in the same situation, get this magic 200 miles range from every single morning when there's no way to charge? Don't say public charging points either, the nearest charging points of any flavour are a mile away and on the forecourt of a BMW dealership that closes before I get home.

I specifically said that I recognise that BEVs aren't practical for everyone, and your example is one of the very reasons that earlier in the thread, I was a bit pessimistic in regards to infrastructure. Yes, for those with no off street parking, a BEV isn't a good solution until charging points are ubiquitous. Yet straight away you've got all defensive when I'm just pointing out one of the main advantages of a BEV...you're right, that advantage currently means nothing, nor makes one practical for you. That doesn't mean they're no good full stop. And that's why I hope that we don't end up in a situation whereby ICE vehicles disappear or become unattainable before the problems which make ownership of BEVs immpossible for the millions of people like yourself, are solved.

 

[jpaul]

Brexit, Megxit, Bevxit
... the long term prognosis might be good, when the cars are available to meet folks budgets and the charge infrastructure is available;
the cars, if anything are leading the charger resources, and, as we discussed, the public charge point installation in the country is not meeting even the level that Liverpool zero-carbon plans require, so you have to be sceptical.
Back-tracking - a wireless infrastructure, which is probably necessary too - no signs of that.

The government will need a strategy to avoid the same problem the french had with the gilet jaunes, diesel taxes that disasdvantage the poorer.

 

[Stolly]

Either people are going to have to change the way they think about travelling anywhere, or EV technology is going to have to make some major leaps. Currently I can drive to Scotland and back from the middle of the UK with one ten minute refueling stop.
Until people can do that in an EV for the same sort of cost then the whole thing is going to feel like a non starter.

What % of people actually do those miles on a regular basis ? There's a lot of people who drive less than 50 miles a day to work and back and maybe another 100 at the weekend. That sort of person might only need to charge twice a week. Its even easier if they can charge at home. My work has put charging bays in the work car park, i could charge for free in the day.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Turning petrol stations into charging points probably wouldn't be profitable enough to be viable.

Most people are going to be charging at home or where they are going. If range eventually tops 500 miles they would barely get used.

shell are doing it in Fulham.

 

[Russinating]

Only it's not is it? I live in a mid-terrace with on street parking and 99% of the time I can't even park outside my own house, and 50% of the time I can't even park in the same street. So, where do I, and the myriad others in the same situation, get this magic 200 miles range from every single morning when there's no way to charge? Don't say public charging points either, the nearest charging points of any flavour are a mile away and on the forecourt of a BMW dealership that closes before I get home.

I live in a terraced house with no off street parking and I have a Model 3 enroute. Where there's a will there's a way.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Only it's not is it? I live in a mid-terrace with on street parking and 99% of the time I can't even park outside my own house, and 50% of the time I can't even park in the same street. So, where do I, and the myriad others in the same situation, get this magic 200 miles range from every single morning when there's no way to charge? Don't say public charging points either, the nearest charging points of any flavour are a mile away and on the forecourt of a BMW dealership that closes before I get home.

We have 15 years for the transition.

Within that 15 years I fully expect you to have charging points available either at car parks or at work or on street parking.

It's like when cars were invented do you think there was a petrol station on every corner?

BP has already bought over a charging company. That should tell you how they see their future playing out.

Plus there is always hybrids plug in and self charging.

Who knows technology could advance to a level where cars outer shells are made of solar panels and they self charge without fuel or use.

 

[McPhee]

Back of envelope numbers.

Fun fact; there are already more public charging sites in the UK than there are petrol stations.

The existing model of having a few refuelling stations in a town isn't going to last. It makes no practical sense when it comes to BEVs for the reasons you identified.

As for electricity production, the "back of the envelope" calculation is fairly easy to do. The difference between peak electricity demand and average electricity demand is around 28GW. That's 245TWh per year. At an efficiency of 3 miles per kWh, that's enough power for 735 billion miles. At an average annual mileage of 8000 miles, that's enough to power over 90 million cars.

That's a really crude calculation, as it assumes perfectly uniform demand and peak production sustained 24/7/365. But it serves well enough to illustrate that we don't necessarily need a vast number of new power stations. We likely do need more power generation capacity (particularly if heating is to be electrified as well). But much of the increased demand can be catered for by using existing resources in a much smarter way.

 

[Rroff]

What % of people actually do those miles on a regular basis ? There's a lot of people who drive less than 50 miles a day to work and back and maybe another 100 at the weekend. That sort of person might only need to charge twice a week. Its even easier if they can charge at home. My work has put charging bays in the work car park, i could charge for free in the day.

Personally I do up to 50 miles a day but there will be the odd day when I will have to do a few hundred without a lot of warning - currently that isn't an ideal situation with EVs. Personally charging at home isn't an issue but through the villages on my way to work with the mess of on street parking it will be a huge consideration.

I find it interesting in this thread how few people can appreciate people having very different circumstances and real world considerations to themself - for instance some people might rock up to their own parking space in a nicely situated private car park at work others might be having to hunt for a space in side streets 2-5 minutes walk away, etc. etc.

 

[Nasher]

We have 15 years for the transition.

Within that 15 years I fully expect you to have charging points available either at car parks or at work or on street parking.

It's like when cars were invented do you think there was a petrol station on every corner?

BP has already bought over a charging company. That should tell you how they see their future playing out.

Plus there is always hybrids plug in and self charging.

Who knows technology could advance to a level where cars outer shells are made of solar panels and they self charge without fuel or use.

The first cars didnt run on petrol

 

[Journey]

I find it interesting in this thread how few people can appreciate people having very different circumstances and real world considerations to themself - for instance some people might rock up to their own parking space in a nicely situated private car park at work others might be having to hunt for a space in side streets 2-5 minutes walk away, etc. etc.

Having been in very different circumstances throughout my life, I fully appreciate some have different issues to others.

It's like the opposite of what happened when horses started to become the inferior mode of transport, you needed a shed or stable (off-street parking) and some place to have it fed and watered at the other end as well as 'parked' which you'd have to pay for. The arrival of cars really was amazing, dump it anywhere, no need to think about getting it looked after and just jump back in and drive it home.

People take things for granted is the issue, and become stagnated and stuck in their ways, we humans love patterns, and order. So when something comes to change that it is hard for people to adapt or put up with small changes, and inconveniences for the greater good overall.

Also no one is forcing the people who are 'stuck' in little villages with no parking on their property to change, they can wait as long as they like and keep on trucking in their Range Rover or whatever, just like they get to put up with 2Mbps ADSL still, and have one mobile network with good signal coverage. Life isn't all sunshine and roses, there is a lot of compromise.

 

[Simon]

It is quite a UK focused view in this thread, UK may end up as one of the leaders in EV but other countries have much bigger challenges and the climate change issue is obviously global. Lets not forget, EV is only really about local air quality with a benefit of cost of ownership due to tax breaks.

Its 100,000km at the moment before the Carbon impact of an EV matches an ICE vehicle.

Personally from what I've seen i think something equally as disruptive, if not more so, will come along.

 

[Firestar_3x]

I hope solid fuel cell cars get developed and make mainstream, the current situation and limitations surrounding battery weight / range / charge time / infrastructure makes what we have currently feel nothing more than a stopgap to the real solution.

 

[Russinating]

@Journey You make a valid point about change etc until your example. Unfortunately where EVs are needed most is polluted inner cities, where people potter about driving 1 mile to work or to drop their kids off at school.

It's these places that have the least accessible parking, and your example of little villages is exactly where EVs should be incredibly easy to adopt; plentiful off-street parking (usually), the need for regular, short journeys due to lack of public transport or conveniences within walking distance, electric infrastructure pretty much up to the same scratch as inner cities, fewer people drawing power etc.

 

[Doobedoo]

For me it’s now purely about price. As soon as they fall within my budget range I’m all aboard.

Hopefully by that time we will know a bit more about reliability and potential issues.

 

[chroniclard]

For me it’s now purely about price. As soon as they fall within my budget range I’m all aboard.

Hopefully by that time we will know a bit more about reliability and potential issues.

Price, range and styling for me. I bit more affordable family car that is more "sporty" oriented with 250+ range.

Suspect I will be in an electric car in a few years.

 

[glenimp617]

I think it was sky news who said yesterday that SUV sales are up significantly and the UKs co2 emmissions are on the increase, not decrease.