EV general discussion

[oweneades]

Had a lovely trip down to Dartmouth on Sunday with just a bit of rain whilst we were having lunch in Rocks Fish and Chips.

Dropped into Strawberry Fields, Buckfastleigh on the way back to grab a drink and a top up from the Osprey chargers on site. Didn't need to stop, but they do a lovely hot chocolate and Gluten Free Lemon cake (I am a Coeliac). Bit pricey but a nice spot just off the A38 with plenty of parking and facilities. Electroverse credit paid for most of the charge so didn't have to wince too much at the 75p per kWh.

Only issue we had was me not paying enough attention to the Kempower Charger screen and plugging it in before it asked, hence failed on handshake. No issue, re-tried with more patience and it all worked.

A little over 200 miles for the whole round trip with me actually using Auto Pilot / Auto lane change properly for the first time.

 

[Greebo]

i am no badge snob and indeed i love it, as it means great cars for great prices........ however at £65k i am disappointed.

I hope the car sells well but what the market really needs is an MX5 equivalent of an EV and the cyberster is certainly not that.

I would love them to release a new electric MGF for around the £25k mark. it doesnt need to be blisteringly quick (though by its nature it would likely smoke the petrol one) but a "light weight" (note the " " ) 2 seater EV with soft top for a sensible price and reasonable performance... i think that would sell. practically because it would need to be 150mile+ range i suspect it would be a little bigger than the old ICE car but even so it could be relatively small.

It would but we arent there yet. As the tech improves and the batteries get better/cheaper then we might get closer but I think you are dreaming expecting to see a £25k MGF EV. You dont even get £25k 2 seater sports cars nowadays. Prices have rocketed with all the tech onboard. Cheapest MX5 is £28k. and go up to £35k on the spec and they are a 8.5s 0-60 car. So yeah you might put a very smell electric motor in a 2 seater sports car with a small 100 mile range battery and match the 8.5s time but who would buy it? Its offering nothing over the MX5 as the speed performance gain of EVs wouldn't be there and the 100 mile range would annoy people.

Originally it was hoped that the Cyberster would come in at £40k and if it had, that would have sold very well indeed.

But since the other 3-4 2 seater EVs about to be launched this coming year are all over £100k, I think the cyberster will have a market and a strong following.

 

[Greebo]

I agree that £65k is a very expensive MG.

However, the MX-5 has a £28k-£35k list, you’d expect the EV equivalent to be £5k to £8k on top (less any purchase ‘discounts’).

Its not though. They went with a 360 mile range , 0-60 of 46s and those scissor doors. All of which will have added lots of costs.

They should have dropped an electric motor, cut the battery in half and put normal doors on and it might have then come in around £40k or under.

 

[Greebo]

It was interesting to see one of my colleagues go back to a petrol/hybrid after an electric car. Apparently they were worried about how much life the battery had left in it and the mounting insurance renewal. I’ve not seen many personally go the other way.

I’m impatiently waiting to see what Audi replace the TT/R8 with. There’s still no electric sports car on the market that I would switch to.

They are working on an R8 EV but I expect it will be a sub 3s car and north of £150k.

 

[lordrobs]

Its not though. They went with a 360 mile range , 0-60 of 46s and those scissor doors. All of which will have added lots of costs.

They should have dropped an electric motor, cut the battery in half and put normal doors on and it might have then come in around £40k or under.

But then it would have been "LOL only 140 miles of range. No thanks."

The manufacturers will build what the public (often by proxy via the motoring press) want and what the people want is range and neck snapping 0-60 times.

Joe Average doesn't care that his roadster weighs two tonnes. He does care about his pub talk 0-60 time.

Lets not also forget the childish enjoyment of revving out a low torque high revving NA engine through the gears making a load of noise and taking 9 seconds to hit 60. Remove the noise and stick work without substituting it for neck snapping acceleration and you are left with a no trick pony.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

Its not though. They went with a 360 mile range , 0-60 of 46s and those scissor doors. All of which will have added lots of costs.

They should have dropped an electric motor, cut the battery in half and put normal doors on and it might have then come in around £40k or under.

To be fair though, it'd be a pretty underwhelming/unmarketable car at £40k with no tricks IMO. At 60k it is only "20k" more than a basic EV and into luxury EV money, and it certainly offers a lot of curb appeal.

But then it would have been "LOL only 140 miles of range. No thanks."

The manufacturers will build what the public (often by proxy via the motoring press) want and what the people want is range and neck snapping 0-60 times.

Joe Average doesn't care that his roadster weighs two tonnes. He does care about his pub talk 0-60 time.

Lets not also forget the childish enjoyment of revving out a low torque high revving NA engine through the gears making a load of noise and taking 9 seconds to hit 60. Remove the noise and stick work without substituting it for neck snapping acceleration and you are left with a no trick pony.

Yeah spot on, and I don't think that is a bad thing.

If you wanted normal doors, half the size - really just buy an MX5.

 

[jpaul]

Lets not also forget the childish enjoyment of revving out a low torque high revving NA engine through the gears making a load of noise

I'd thought below video with the ionic5 gearbox on laguna is quiet intoxicating,
he doesn't seem to say if the drifting is courtesy of the torque bands from gearbox emulation

 

[lordrobs]

I'd thought below video with the ionic5 gearbox on laguna is quiet intoxicating,
he doesn't seem to say if the drifting is courtesy of the torque bands from gearbox emulation

I'm really not sure how I feel about an emulated gearbox. Its an integral part of an ICE experience and can add to the enjoyment of driving with the right application in the right car (eg. my MX5) or is simply a function of making the wheels go around which has really been superseded by automatic gearboxes (eg. my Leon). Either way the thing serves a purpose.

To simulate the process just feels a bit like winding up a quartz watch. Serving no purpose whatsoever but clinging on to the past. I guess when mated with some computer game sound effects played in the cabin it adds a sense of drama to the acceleration but it still comes across a bit naff. Maybe experiencing it in the real world would change my mind.

 

[jpaul]

To simulate the process just feels a bit like winding up a quartz watch. Serving no purpose whatsoever but clinging on to the past. I guess when mated with some computer game sound effects played in the cabin it adds a sense of drama to the acceleration but it still comes across a bit naff. Maybe experiencing it in the real world would change my mind.

I thought that if they are artificially limiting the in 'gear' torque so power delivery is like an ICE, that may make drivability of an ev better,
without having to rely on ev traction control/dcc (effectively drive by wire like f-35 - so, you are not seeing the raw quartz watch now in ev?)
if the torque is rolling off, in gear, then for driving around a bend, should be easier to balance car. ..... is this gobbledygook johnny ?

 

[Simon]

It’s just a gimmick. No actual benefit and anything slowing acceleration for feel will make the car slower.

Not many ev need traction control in the dry anyway…

 

[sandys]

It’s just a gimmick. No actual benefit and anything slowing acceleration for feel will make the car slower.

Not many ev need traction control in the dry anyway…

Most of the enjoyment of driving comes from the sensations, the feel, the noise etc, anything can do fast in a straight line with an e-motor, whether it can do the rest remains to be seen, but Hyundai looks to have done an awesome job at simulating a fun driving experience, the Hagerty video suggests (might actually be the carmudgen podcast, I have been sucking up loads of N info) it puts every DSG ICE car to shame, the only thing they haven't quite got yet is steering feedback for slide correction etc, but with the effort they have put it maybe it will come OTA as the engineers have acknowledged it and say they are working on it.

As gimmicks go this is more interesting than straight line whoosh, but it does have that too.

 

[Simon]

Most of the enjoyment of driving comes from the sensations, the feel, the noise etc, anything can do fast in a straight line with an e-motor, whether it can do the rest remains to be seen, but Hyundai looks to have done an awesome job at simulating a fun driving experience, the Hagerty video suggests (might actually be the carmudgen podcast, I have been sucking up loads of N info) it puts every DSG ICE car to shame, the only thing they haven't quite got yet is steering feedback for slide correction etc, but with the effort they have put it maybe it will come OTA as the engineers have acknowledged it and say they are working on it.

As gimmicks go this is more interesting than straight line whoosh, but it does have that too.

Every Dual clutch ICE to shame by playing the sound of one through its speakers? Not sure about that.

There’s still no gear change to get right etc. no sense of vibration of fuel burning noises etc. better off just sticking to being an ev. But I do like their efforts at trying

 

[lordrobs]

Yeah, good on them for doing something a bit different. I imagine most people will find the e-shift a novelty when they first get the car and once that wears off never activate it again unless showing the feature to other people.

I was quite excited by the idea of the MX5 conversions that bolt to the gearbox leaving a fully operational clutch and gearbox in place but then when you realise its possible to just drive it in third gear and the clutch serves no purpose it soured my thoughts on it a bit.

 

[MrRockliffe]

Checking out Polestar 2s atm, as a wildcard option for a new car.

Car I'm looking at is a 320d, costing £12.38 for my journey (96 miles, 55mpg, 156p)

I've calculated that a Polestar 2, with charging at work will be double that, at £25.50 (85p instavolt, 3.2kwh/mile).


With home charging it goes down to £6.68 for the journey (22p/kw)



Shouldn't be surprised, but that's a hell of a price difference.


I'm torn as I REALLY like the Polestar to drive. In fact, I enjoy electric full stop.



Home charging will be tricky/faffy as the Porsche is garaged and I have no room in front of the garage to park the car, so would need to swap cars round regularly to charge.




Which is the best subscription tariff for charging for longer journeys?

 

[jpaul]

just insurance&warranty on polestar ? -ok only a little more
[sorry confused still haven't chosen

Our top car insurance prices for you
Vehicle: POLESTAR 2
Annual
£516.96

Vehicle: VOLKSWAGEN ID 3 1ST EDITION
Annual
£362.07

Vehicle: BMW 3 SERIES 320I SE
Annual
£356.51
]

There’s still no gear change to get right etc.

there is - I hadn't watched all the video originally - but it cuts the power and applies regenerative braking if you hit the rev limiter w/o changing up w/paddles
and also has applies regen braking, modelling engine braking if you down shift.

 

[sandys]

Every Dual clutch ICE to shame by playing the sound of one through its speakers? Not sure about that.

There’s still no gear change to get right etc. no sense of vibration of fuel burning noises etc. better off just sticking to being an ev. But I do like their efforts at trying

Every modern car is augmenting the sound through the speakers because they have made then so refined and quiet due to the regs and expectations these days, so in reality is it that different, of course simulating their own 2.0 turbos is a shame, they could have chosen something more interesting, there are no good sounding modern turbo 4 pots don't fake one.

For example it bounces of the redline cutting power etc, many DSG don't do that they upshift... it's a really interesting first pass, they have put a load of work into this simulation. I'll be trying to get a test drive to form my own opinion of it but as I like Abarths lame attempt to a point I can't see this being bad.

It's biggest problem is that it is in a big SUV, I don't need two of those.

Yeah, good on them for doing something a bit different. I imagine most people will find the e-shift a novelty when they first get the car and once that wears off never activate it again unless showing the feature to other people.

I can see how that might be the case for some, even myself, if I could push a button and shut my car up when I am not in the mood, I'd use it.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Checking out Polestar 2s atm, as a wildcard option for a new car.

Car I'm looking at is a 320d, costing £12.38 for my journey (96 miles, 55mpg, 156p)

I've calculated that a Polestar 2, with charging at work will be double that, at £25.50 (85p instavolt, 3.2kwh/mile).


With home charging it goes down to £6.68 for the journey (22p/kw)



Shouldn't be surprised, but that's a hell of a price difference.


I'm torn as I REALLY like the Polestar to drive. In fact, I enjoy electric full stop.



Home charging will be tricky/faffy as the Porsche is garaged and I have no room in front of the garage to park the car, so would need to swap cars round regularly to charge.




Which is the best subscription tariff for charging for longer journeys?

If you charge a home you probably won’t use them enough to warrant a subscription.

Tesla offer the best rates outside of schemes that may come with the car (assuming it’s new).

Look at EV charging tariffs, rates are as low as 7p/kwh and run the numbers. You should assume some public charging either way but most people with home charging it’s sub 10% and cheaper AC public charging is getting more prevalent.

 

[MrRockliffe]

If you charge a home you probably won’t use them enough to warrant a subscription.

Tesla offer the best rates outside of schemes that may come with the car (assuming it’s new).

Look at EV charging tariffs, rates are as low as 7p/kwh and run the numbers. You should assume some public charging either way but most people with home charging it’s sub 10% and cheaper AC public charging is getting more prevalent.

I wouldn't get an EV tariff as I wouldn't be able to charge overnight at home, nor would I offload enough of my energy to overnight to make the increased day rate worth it - I calculated it in a spreadsheet.

I'd be looking at 2021 cars, ~22k. Not sure if any of those come with charging? Not sure how it works with Tesla - do you get free charging still these days? Or reduce cost charging on their network?



Insurance is actually cheaper for me on a Polestar (long range, dual motor) than it is a 320d for some reason, by a couple hundred pounds.

 

[Journey]

Home charging will be tricky/faffy as the Porsche is garaged and I have no room in front of the garage to park the car, so would need to swap cars round regularly to charge.

Get a long type 2 cable, problem solved, and you can get on a decent EV tariff.

 

[Simon]

Every modern car is augmenting the sound through the speakers because they have made then so refined and quiet due to the regs and expectations these days, so in reality is it that different, of course simulating their own 2.0 turbos is a shame, they could have chosen something more interesting, there are no good sounding modern turbo 4 pots don't fake one.

For example it bounces of the redline cutting power etc, many DSG don't do that they upshift... it's a really interesting first pass, they have put a load of work into this simulation. I'll be trying to get a test drive to form my own opinion of it but as I like Abarths lame attempt to a point I can't see this being bad.

It's biggest problem is that it is in a big SUV, I don't need two of those.



I can see how that might be the case for some, even myself, if I could push a button and shut my car up when I am not in the mood, I'd use it.

You said every. Not modern. Some dct ICE will sit on the limiter and don’t have augmented sound.

Still can’t see it matching an ICE experience. Think EV need the hans zimmer treatment.