EV general discussion

I’ve spotted Tesla are no longer offering basic Autopilot (lane keeping) in the USA where ‘Full Self Driving’ is live on new cars.

That means your only option is TAAC or a $99/month subscription for anything more advanced. They’ve also removed the outright purchase option, although that was $8000 or something daft that you’d never pay on a lease and likely on something you’d own.

For me that is 100% a dealbreaker and would rule me out getting another. I don’t want or need a £99/month subscription but I do regularly use lane keeping.

Given it’s not a standard feature in most cars I’ve been looking at (and frankly those implementations are better than the dated one in my car), I’m not really short of options elsewhere.

I’m pretty sure I can take the Model Y off the ‘what next’ list. I expect FSD will be here by the time I’m looking to pull the trigger given it’s going through approval in the EU right now and already live in Australia.
 
TBH, if i were buying a new tesla, i would buy a "preowned" new tesla instead. the AUC teslas come with enhanced autopilot and an extra year's warranty as a bonus
if you buy an AUC car less than 1 year old, the overall warranty will actually be longer than a tesla bought new off the factory
and because they aren't new-new will also be cheaper
 
If I were buying yes, used would be the way to go, however, I may not be buying.

Ideally, I want something with a 100kwh battery for towing so I may end up leasing as I doubt the iX3 or ex60 will have dropped enough by the time I need to pull the trigger.
 
for me the only thing Tesla have which may encourage me over others is their charging network.... but unless I get a job as a taxi driver the reality is we are talking a saving of maybe £20 and minor convenience increases less than a handful of times a year

the cars are ok but don't stand out against others imo, but with having to pay a sub to get satnav and what not (compared to wireless android auto in my current car)

they are not especially cheap cars to buy either (and I wouldn't want a white one!)

and then add to that I don't trust them as a company given the historic promises they made about prices and functionality of their autodriving which is imo being renagued on (HW3 isn't likely to offer full autopilot but didn't musk promise that ALL Tesla's from 2016 on would always have the option of full level 5 autopilot even if it meant free hardware upgrades?)

and let's face it, for most people who are not complete Tesla fanbois .... the Elon Musk factor is a negative as well (most people I know get a Tesla despite Musk not because of him (and mostly because of favourable work leases)

but given I have to buy cars out of my own pocket without any tax breaks etc ..... Tesla has all but dropped off my rader now. maybe we would get a cheap 2nd hand one for the wife's car.... but that would not be up to me, and my Mrs distrusts / dislikes Musk as much as I do these days.
 
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you don't have to pay a sub for the satnav though? without the connectivity sub, you still get real-time traffic and routing, for the route you are taking
all you lose (for the satnav) is real time traffic display on the roads you are not driving through...whilst it's nice to have, it's not a major disadvantage
 
As above, you don’t have to pay a subscription to use the in car sat nav. Standard connectivity is included for the first 8 years (older cars have lifetime so nothing as expired yet).

I’ve never paid it myself.

If you don’t pay for premium connectivity, the only thing you miss out on is the satellite map vs standard map and traffic overlay on all roads (you still get the traffic overlay on your route).


Even when it does expire, you can connect the car to your phones hot spot as most of it just needs an internet connection to work.

The same applies to all the in car streaming stuff that falls in scope of the premium connectivity subscription. The main things that don’t work via WiFi is stuff that goes via Tesla servers like remote camera viewing, you have to pay for that either way.

This also isn’t unique to Tesla. Some cars on the market only include their connected features for as little as 3 years.

That means things like basic app access stop working unless you pay.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t BMW’s connected features only included for 3 years?
 
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tamzzy said:
you don't have to pay a sub for the satnav though? without the connectivity sub, you still get real-time traffic and routing, for the route you are taking
all you lose (for the satnav) is real time traffic display on the roads you are not driving through...whilst it's nice to have, it's not a major disadvantage
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but it's still included free on any car with car play or android auto.... combine that with potentially losing lane assist..... it's not that they are bad cars just that whilst other companies are improving Tesla seem to be (relatively) going the other way (imo .... other opinions exist and may not be wrong ;) )

edit actually on re reading.... you make a good point. that is not what my mate who has a Tesla told me hence the confusion. he said without his subs you lost quite a few bits and bobs, reduced satnav features, access to Spotify/Amazon music etc etc etc. if he is wrong however I stand corrected
 
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b0rn2sk8 said:
As above, you don’t have to pay a subscription to use the in car sat nav. Standard connectivity is included for the first 8 years (older cars have lifetime so nothing as expired yet).

I’ve never paid it myself.

If you don’t pay for premium connectivity, the only thing you miss out on is the satellite map vs standard map and traffic overlay on all roads (you still get the traffic overlay on your route).


Even when it does expire, you can connect the car to your phones hot spot as most of it just needs an internet connection to work.

The same applies to all the in car streaming stuff that falls in scope of the premium connectivity subscription. The main things that don’t work via WiFi is stuff that goes via Tesla servers like remote camera viewing, you have to pay for that either way.

This also isn’t unique to Tesla. Some cars on the market only include their connected features for as little as 3 years.

That means things like basic app access stop working unless you pay.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t BMW’s connected features only included for 3 years?
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fair enough. that's me told for blindly trusting 3rd party info!

as for BMW I think it depends on your car. (touch wood) our i3 still has access to everything it supports but others not so much.

my ipace has an optional data sub which I didn't renew however (imo) android auto is superior to that anyway.

but I am miffed that it has a sub for things like viewing remote charging and turning on car warming etc. that said (and I have no idea why but am not complaining) the expiration date on that keeps getting extended without me doing anything.
 
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My i5 has map updates for 7 years via USB updates, however the online services for connected nav and OTA map updates, connected charging, amazon alexa, BMW online, connected music, connected parking, online speech are all for 3 years initially, then subs after.
 
bigmike20vt said:
edit actually on re reading.... you make a good point. that is not what my mate who has a Tesla told me hence the confusion. he said without his subs you lost quite a few bits and bobs, reduced satnav features, access to Spotify/Amazon music etc etc etc. if he is wrong however I stand corrected
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Yeah Spotify/Amazon music/yt music all work with hotspot internet access, so no issues there. The only entertainment bit that doesnt work without the sub is caraoke.
 
My Ioniq 38 requires a sub after the first 5 years to use the app to do anything, think its currently about £25 a year which isn't too bad, i feel that's fair for a sim connection for a year and support of an app.
 
Curious been told today we are definitely moving to an EV van fleet before October and they've found a van that can do our daily usage on one charge and charge overnight but haven't downlined what van - but I can't see a single van on the market which that is true for - the vans that are close on range are the wrong dimensions and would be too fine margins for our use and the vans with the right dimensions are way short on that kind of range.

I dunno if coincidence but the upcoming Mercedes VAN.EA are quoted at [real world range] pretty much the exact same figure as our average daily usage but that would still be cutting it far too fine - though with the right charger you can charge it around 40% in 15 minutes so charging on the road would be workable - but that is going to go down like a lead balloon with the average driver, especially if they are expected to work their break(s) around it, and be a bit of a logistics nightmare. We do tend to be moving more and more to Mercedes though these days with the odd Fords still hanging about.

EDIT: With the recent changes to shifts and turnaround I reckon that is what they are going to do, if you can stick 40% range in with an appropriate charger in 15 minutes it will fit into the turnaround changes.
 
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Rroff said:
Curious been told today we are definitely moving to an EV van fleet before October and they've found a van that can do our daily usage on one charge and charge overnight but haven't downlined what van - but I can't see a single van on the market which that is true for - the vans that are close on range are the wrong dimensions and would be too fine margins for our use and the vans with the right dimensions are way short on that kind of range.

I dunno if coincidence but the upcoming Mercedes VAN.EA are quoted at [real world range] pretty much the exact same figure as our average daily usage but that would still be cutting it far too fine - though with the right charger you can charge it around 40% in 15 minutes so charging on the road would be workable - but that is going to go down like a lead balloon with the average driver, especially if they are expected to work their break(s) around it, and be a bit of a logistics nightmare. We do tend to be moving more and more to Mercedes though these days with the odd Fords still hanging about.

EDIT: With the recent changes to shifts and turnaround I reckon that is what they are going to do, if you can stick 40% range in with an appropriate charger in 15 minutes it will fit into the turnaround changes.
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No idea what your work place does, or required mileage and don't expect you to say. However we finished a project before Christmas for a business who do local and regional deliveries with 4 vans (soon expanding to 6) they just moved all the vans to BEV in one go, two are are Ford E-transit Extended Range 89kWh the other are drop side/flabed Transits with 68kWh packs. They've had a 160kW DC rapid charge point fitted with dual CCS heads installed in their loading area along with 6 other 22kW AC chargers, all of the charge points fully installed cost roughly same as one van, the pay back on the charge points is predicted to be 18-24 months, and the down time on the vans due to failure and maintenance is also expected to be significantly reduced.
One of their concerns brought up during the BEV change consultation was the expectation of people to take their own time to work around charging the vans. Significant amounts of data were collected using black boxes in the vans for 3 months prior to the consultation, and it was determined that the actual real issue they faced was people taking slower or longer routes than required, and unsolicited stops/breaks. I am sure they would not have done this had they known the boxes were in there, but they didn't use the data against the workers, but explained that at no point would they be expected to charge a vehicle on anything but works time, they would however also be deploying a new nav system that plotted optimal routes for their drops/collections and no personal devices with Waze etc. any longer. They went with a DC rapid as they realised just how long the vans spend idle when be loaded and 22kW wasn't fast enough to add the range they'd require to avoid public charging too often, and even though it was a reasonable large extra capex, given the predicted savings in time and money they felt it was a prudent decision.

As a forward looking business part of the project I was involved in was deploying 190kWp of solar PV on their roof and a total of 400kWh of battery storage, which will be expanded if required to 1MWh (pending some permits too), these can be used to supply the chargers on site and ensure the DC rapid can always deliver it's full potential, their grid restriction means they can only pull ~120kW (150kVa limit) without the onsite substation being upgraded further.

At the end of the day if the people higher up than you have researched it properly and done the data collection and who makes the decisions, then it will be up to them to roll it out and support it correctly, staff/people will always whine and moan at change, even more so if it is something they wouldn't support for themselves.
 
Journey said:
No idea what your work place does, or required mileage and don't expect you to say. However we finished a project before Christmas for a business who do local and regional deliveries with 4 vans (soon expanding to 6) they just moved all the vans to BEV in one go, two are are Ford E-transit Extended Range 89kWh the other are drop side/flabed Transits with 68kWh packs. They've had a 160kW DC rapid charge point fitted with dual CCS heads installed in their loading area along with 6 other 22kW AC chargers, all of the charge points fully installed cost roughly same as one van, the pay back on the charge points is predicted to be 18-24 months, and the down time on the vans due to failure and maintenance is also expected to be significantly reduced.
One of their concerns brought up during the BEV change consultation was the expectation of people to take their own time to work around charging the vans. Significant amounts of data were collected using black boxes in the vans for 3 months prior to the consultation, and it was determined that the actual real issue they faced was people taking slower or longer routes than required, and unsolicited stops/breaks. I am sure they would not have done this had they known the boxes were in there, but they didn't use the data against the workers, but explained that at no point would they be expected to charge a vehicle on anything but works time, they would however also be deploying a new nav system that plotted optimal routes for their drops/collections and no personal devices with Waze etc. any longer. They went with a DC rapid as they realised just how long the vans spend idle when be loaded and 22kW wasn't fast enough to add the range they'd require to avoid public charging too often, and even though it was a reasonable large extra capex, given the predicted savings in time and money they felt it was a prudent decision.

As a forward looking business part of the project I was involved in was deploying 190kWp of solar PV on their roof and a total of 400kWh of battery storage, which will be expanded if required to 1MWh (pending some permits too), these can be used to supply the chargers on site and ensure the DC rapid can always deliver it's full potential, their grid restriction means they can only pull ~120kW (150kVa limit) without the onsite substation being upgraded further.
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I generally keep things about work a bit vague for reasons.

I think the only way they are going to make it work is if they install 100+kW DC rapid chargers at work - there has been quite a bit of talk about installing chargers but no real details. Looking at the maps there have been a few 120 and 160kW public chargers supposedly put in around where we operate within the last few months or so but reliable access to them would be critical and anything 22kw or less, probably even 50 or less, just wouldn't work.

Be interesting to see what the impact is on downtime due to failure and maintenance - that has been a big issue recently due to the vans having like 200-300+K miles on them despite being 2020s vans and potentially something which has motivated this move. Also with these vans tracking (and dashcams) will be being introduced which will also be interesting in terms of route compliance and unsolicited stops/breaks :s

Journey said:
At the end of the day if the people higher up than you have researched it properly and done the data collection and who makes the decisions, then it will be up to them to roll it out and support it correctly, staff/people will always whine and moan at change, even more so if it is something they wouldn't support for themselves.
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Unfortunately not that simple - been a lot of issues lately due to those higher up having an idealistic notion of how things are "supposed" to work vs me in the thick of it having to deal with how things work in reality (I cover the duty manager role outside the 9-5 window so have to deal with a lot of the day to day running of the vans) - to the point I had to threaten to quit a couple of months back to get some issues resolved - and hopefully that won't be the case here. But it is probably going to be a uphill battle against those who are inevitably going to drag their feet and moan just because of change even if the plan is reasonable and workable on paper.
 
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would be interesting to know how professional multi-stop nav e routsoftware competes with likes of Waze and driver personal knowledge to optimize urban routes
(roads around our way known to have bottlenecks, or school stops, temp roadworks, potholes are those all considered)
equally with just a couple of fast chargers back at base if the software can schedule trips to return to base when a charger would be available
 
jpaul said:
would be interesting to know how professional multi-stop nav e routsoftware competes with likes of Waze and driver personal knowledge to optimize urban routes
(roads around our way known to have bottlenecks, or school stops, temp roadworks, potholes are those all considered)
equally with just a couple of fast chargers back at base if the software can schedule trips to return to base when a charger would be available
Click to expand...

I read a description once that seems apt, Google maps for tourists, waze for locals.
The only issue i see with waze is that if you do a regular route, it seems to prefer sticking with it even if not the best on that day.
 
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