EV general discussion

[Penfold101]

everything worked really easily but the weight and thickness of the charging cable, unravelling and putting my car on charge was grim, that is not something my missus is going to manage, too heavy and unweildy, hard to believe this is touted as the way. Rubbish much worse than petrol even disregarding time.

Of all the curious arguments I’ve seen against EV’s, this is a new one!

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Of all the curious arguments I’ve seen against EV’s, this is a new one!

It’s not that new, the Toyota CEO (?) once said words to the effect of women couldn’t possibly charge an EV.

 

[dannyjo22]

you can buy used EVs at pretty much all price points these days and they will be far cheaper to run than their equivalent petrol car if you can charge at home which i presume you do given you already have an EV.

Absolutely until they are the only option and then the rapid depreciation goes away or becomes more in line with what we see on iCE cars.. But yes right now there are insane savings on a car with 4000 miles on it that was 40k from new.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Absolutely until they are the only option and then the rapid depreciation goes away or becomes more in line with what we see on iCE cars.. But yes right now there are insane savings on a car with 4000 miles on it that was 40k from new.

The depreciation curve on an EV is broadly the same as an ICE altar after 3 years. If your buying used post sal sac lease market then there isn’t really any difference.

Depreciation on new mainstream cars has always been horrific.

 

[LiE]

The depreciation curve on an EV is broadly the same as an ICE altar after 3 years. If your buying used post sal sac lease market then there isn’t really any difference.

Depreciation on new mainstream cars has always been horrific.

Exactly, my i5 with options is £100k new which is bonkers for a 5 series. 2 years later I buy it for less than 50%. Will be interesting to see where it ends up after my lease.

 

[Haggisman]

Those sort of fast chargers won't be in normal everyday vehicles for years either and regardless of cost and the whole experience is bound to be rubbish as I can't image them refining the cable size.

Did my first public charge at my local MFG 150Kw station, not because I needed to just for the experience and because we have two cars that need charging and sometime I might need more charge than I thought the day before, anyway, everything worked really easily but the weight and thickness of the charging cable, unravelling and putting my car on charge was grim, that is not something my missus is going to manage, too heavy and unweildy, hard to believe this is touted as the way. Rubbish much worse than petrol even disregarding time.

Yeah, I used one of the chargers at Gloucester services over the weekend, and those cables do certainly take a decent amount of effort to manoeuvre.

The cost argument is legitimate as well, at 69p/kw, that's 19p/mile @ 3.6mi/kwh. I borrowed an old diesel van over the holidays for lugging tents around and even with the boot filled to the brim and with 4 passengers, I was getting 40mpg on the motorway, so basically the same cost - in a couple of years with eVED added, the van will be ~3p/mile cheaper to run.

Sure the EV is nicer to drive, but the van was significantly more practical and would be a lot cheaper to buy (sure, there are maintenance & repair costs due to being an older vehicle etc. so it's impossible to make an accurate comparison).

you can buy used EVs at pretty much all price points these days and they will be far cheaper to run than their equivalent petrol car if you can charge at home which i presume you do given you already have an EV.

While technically true, it's a bit misleading no?

Yes, you can buy an old "banger" of a Leaf or Zoe with 100k miles for £2-3k, but anyone doing so with the intention of using that as their only family car is in for a world of pain - at that price point you'd be mad to go for an EV over an ICE (obviously they're ideal if you're getting one for a second car as a cheap local runaround and have a suitable main car for longer journeys).

For a more realistic option, you're looking at closer to £6k for an MG5 or 50kw Zoe (I've discounted the 40kw Leaf and Zoe due to poor public charging provision).

 

[tamzzy]

And in the long term charging prices will come down as competition comes into play.

Even if it comes down eventually, it wouldn't be by much. The floor is determined by the cost of leccy, standing charge, maintenance, rent and vat added to all of these I would've thought.

Basically this would be around 44-45p/kWh (peak), which incidentally is what Tesla is charging for their superchargers

 

[tamzzy]

Absolutely until they are the only option and then the rapid depreciation goes away or becomes more in line with what we see on iCE cars.. But yes right now there are insane savings on a car with 4000 miles on it that was 40k from new.

Exactly, my i5 with options is £100k new which is bonkers for a 5 series. 2 years later I buy it for less than 50%. Will be interesting to see where it ends up after my lease.

It's hard to compare because most EVs are bought via company schemes or sal-sac. Most of these users will be paying BIK and hence it's automatically 40%-ish off the list price essentially for the first 3 years depreciation. The used market has already priced this into the residuals.

(As I've said previously), the devil is in the detail.
Most EVs are bought via salary sacrifice/company schemes so the price paid for these comes from pre-tax income.

So, for a 60k car that's "worth" £20k after 3 years...it seems like a £40k depreciation, but this £40k is paid pre-income tax.
If taking into account minimal BIK and 40-45% tax band, the owner only paid about £25k of that £40k depreciation. Without the EV, the rest of the £15k would've been paid as tax to HMRC in any case. So there really isn't any "loss" per se as it wouldn't have affected the take home pay.

Basically a £25k depreciation from a £45k car doesn't sound as bad now, really.

Obviously, the above doesn't apply to private buyers of new EVs, but these buyers are the exceptions and will have to suck it up unfortunately.

^

 

[Journey]

One factor to consider is the China brand MSRP being lower than the overly bloated prices from other manufacturers. Will the % drop be equal to that of the non-China cars, or will it be less once the brands are fully recognised and not new brands on the block

There's been loads of excuses that EVs cost more to build, hence the high MSRP when in reality the opposite is true, it's just when you have a bunch of factories, and no supply chain setup for the parts that the manufacturer tries to pass on that cost.

Also lol at the rubbish about plugging in a car at a public charger, my 75 year old 4' 10" mother managed it without issue, that was a 350kW charger, the only bit she struggled with was getting the DC CCS rubber bung out due to having daft nails.

 

[m4rmite]

Swing what balance? Certainly not in a country with such expensive electricity/away from home charging. My wife fills a Seat Arona for £50 that does 320-350 miles. How much do you estimate charging up an similar car that's at least a 1/3rd more expensive to buy to do 250 miles on a good day is going to cost? How much do you think adding 50KW from one of those would cost in the uk?

I will have one because of a salary sacrifice, without that I'd carry on paying for fuel and a cheaper car. I'm not under any illusions that I won't be going back to ICE when my scheme ends or the inevitable tax increases on electricity.

Byd were looking at 50p per kwh, that's around 12.5p per mile so no more expensive than petrol.

 

[lordrobs]

I'm not sure that allowing for additional supply chain cost is overly bloating your sale price.

Still, it's good to hear that the Chinese don't do that. I'll look forward to seeing all these cheap cars that Mat Watson keeps doing videos about by doing a straight currency conversion from the Chinese sale price.

 

[sandys]

The cost argument is legitimate as well, at 69p/kw, that's 19p/mile @ 3.6mi/kwh. I borrowed an old diesel van over the holidays for lugging tents around and even with the boot filled to the brim and with 4 passengers, I was getting 40mpg on the motorway, so basically the same cost - in a couple of years with eVED added, the van will be ~3p/mile cheaper to run.

Sure the EV is nicer to drive, but the van was significantly more practical and would be a lot cheaper to buy (sure, there are maintenance & repair costs due to being an older vehicle etc. so it's impossible to make an accurate comparison).

Yup my Abarth worked out at 39mpg equivalent which is pretty terrible considering how I drive it in stop start Bristol traffic, can't go anywhere fast so just sit in its 200bhp Eco mode as I get zero benefit from performance on the daily grind, rarely going above 40mph and averaging 3.4mpkw.

Barely better than my old petrol Abarth with those rates, it would murder most EV on the motorway, driven for economy I could nudge 480 miles out of that, ran it for ~14yrs over 100k don't recall the number now, 120 perhaps, very low running costs and very reliable. EV much nicer in traffic though than dealing with a manual but on the other side all the fun when you want it was playing with that manual box making all teh ICE turbo noises when ripping about the lanes or tracks.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

With 5 mins for a 70% charge, the ability to really rapidly recharge an EV might well swing the balance:

That’s too fast now. When I stop I want to be able to rest and grab a drink without racing back to the car

One factor to consider is the China brand MSRP being lower than the overly bloated prices from other manufacturers. Will the % drop be equal to that of the non-China cars, or will it be less once the brands are fully recognised and not new brands on the block

There's been loads of excuses that EVs cost more to build, hence the high MSRP when in reality the opposite is true, it's just when you have a bunch of factories, and no supply chain setup for the parts that the manufacturer tries to pass on that cost.

Also lol at the rubbish about plugging in a car at a public charger, my 75 year old 4' 10" mother managed it without issue, that was a 350kW charger, the only bit she struggled with was getting the DC CCS rubber bung out due to having daft nails.

Overly bloated? Give over. You mean the non CCP subsided traditional manufactures.

 

[dannyjo22]

Byd were looking at 50p per kwh, that's around 12.5p per mile so no more expensive than petrol.

I will believe that when I see it (50p per kwh). That is close I spend 13p per mile. So why would I hamstring myself with the other issues of ownership if I can just drive an ICE for a cheaper purchase price. You are never getting people onboard paying the same and it wouldn't actually be the same because they then have another 3p per mile in tax.

 

[Journey]

I will believe that when I see it (50p per kwh). That is close I spend 13p per mile. So why would I hamstring myself with the other issues of ownership if I can just drive an ICE for a cheaper purchase price. You are never getting people onboard paying the same and it wouldn't actually be the same because they then have another 3p per mile in tax.

Other issues? What about the other positives.

If you hate it that much and are only saving a few price per mile then just swap back now.

 

[dannyjo22]

Other issues? What about the other positives.

If you hate it that much and are only saving a few price per mile then just swap back now.

Well that makes no sense at all. Currently it's cheaper for me to run one because I can charge at home and on a work SS scheme. The point was the BYD chargers. If I had to pay more per mile to drive a car that I wasn't charging from home why the hell would I choose that over an ICE?

 

[MrRongCar]

Talk about mountain out of a mole hill.


I’ve finally had approval from Hyundai that the car will be collected without a cable, but to do so, it’ll:


1. Be inspected by Manheim

2. Be collected up to 72 hours later due to the fact it needs a low loader, since it doesn’t have a charging cable.



Yeah…


Will be having to extend the insurance again.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

What the whaaaa?

 

[Kenai]

I'd guess that's a (poorly thought out) policy thing to stop collection drivers getting stranded with no way to charge (obviously tethered public chargers don't exist)

 

[tom_e]

You just know Manheim are going to be noting down the missing cable and trying to charge someone for it as well