EV general discussion

lordrobs said:
I often see this mentioned but I wonder how viable that will actually be? Will large companies really want a mix of different batteries from various manufacturers of various states of degradation? On the flip side will individuals really know how to approach turning their decade old Hyundai Ioniq into storage for solar or cheap tariff scalping duties? Massive opportunities though for companies to set themselves up to be ready to re-use and recycle the cells if it is viable. I'm sure the vehicle manufacturers would happily hand over the recycling obligations if they could do so so it would be win-win for both parties.
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It’s already happening, the cells are commodity products at the end of the day and cars are produced in their millions.

https://electrek.co/2018/06/29/niss...large-energy-storage-johan-cruijff-arena/amp/

https://www.edie.net/amp-news/6/BMW-opens-energy-storage-facility-built-from-used-EV-batteries/

There was another in Europe where they have decommissioned an old fossil power station and used its beefy grid connection to fill the site with old EV batteries but I wouldn’t find the link. Also bear in mine that it’s only really now that the very first Leafs off the line are coming to the end of the cars life, same for the original Model S. the du both launched about 10 years ago in tiny volumes.

You only need 100 old model S packs and all of a sudden you have 1MWhr of storage.

A full model S 100kwh pack would last me about 7-8 days of house usage completely off grid (gas heating).
 
Article the other day about an alternative battery technique using iron pellets which would be much lower cost+maintenance for static storage applications (than Lion&co)
so like the (unexpected?) solar cell rapid ramp up and price drops, personal storage market could be disrupted.


(further reading boris's net-zero policy) Did wonder whether as part of the fairness of application of ev subsidies , they should have a scrappage incentive, car manufacturer can get a green credit based on co2, and high annual mileage, of car you hand in.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
It’s already happening, the cells are commodity products at the end of the day and cars are produced in their millions.

https://electrek.co/2018/06/29/niss...large-energy-storage-johan-cruijff-arena/amp/

https://www.edie.net/amp-news/6/BMW-opens-energy-storage-facility-built-from-used-EV-batteries/

There was another in Europe where they have decommissioned an old fossil power station and used its beefy grid connection to fill the site with old EV batteries but I wouldn’t find the link. Also bear in mine that it’s only really now that the very first Leafs off the line are coming to the end of the cars life, same for the original Model S. the du both launched about 10 years ago in tiny volumes.

You only need 100 old model S packs and all of a sudden you have 1MWhr of storage.

A full model S 100kwh pack would last me about 7-8 days of house usage completely off grid (gas heating).
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Those two links kind of highlight the point I was doing a poor job of trying to make. The first uses Leaf batteries, the second i3 batteries. This is fine while we have limited runs of EOL batteries coming through.

Fast forward another 15 years where you've now got a much wider range of packs, from an ever growing crop of EV's, reaching the end of their life does the concept of "this facility uses ### *insert model here* battery packs" still work?

Which then leads you to the option of breaking the pack down to the individual cells (quite costly I'd imagine) but even then you already have at least three cell types that I'm aware of. There just seems to be a massive number of variables for re-use to be a simple process unless (and I don't for a second think this will happen) the industry gets its collective heads together and decides on a standardised modular approach to specifying the battery packs.
 
I’m not sure why you think it would be an issue. They aren’t just taking whole pack out the bottom of the car and plugging it into something else, they’ll remove all the modules within the pack and attach them to a new BMS.

There really aren’t that many variations in the real world because there are really only a few manufacturers of cells and platforms cars are built on. Just look at Seat, Skoda, VW, Audi and Ford, all using the same platform and architecture for their high volume EVs will represent some serious volume in Europe.
 
lordrobs said:
Which then leads you to the option of breaking the pack down to the individual cells (quite costly I'd imagine) but even then you already have at least three cell types that I'm aware of. There just seems to be a massive number of variables for re-use to be a simple process unless (and I don't for a second think this will happen) the industry gets its collective heads together and decides on a standardised modular approach to specifying the battery packs.
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Surely you would be breaking up the packs anyway as you wont want or need a 400V+ battery pack to power your home. Looking at Teslas powerwall the battery voltage is 50V
 
but the modules are < 400V, and you want to re-use the cooling system
Tesla 5.3 kWh Battery Module (85 kWh Pack): These Modules are from Tesla Model S and Model X vehicles. We only supply batteries that have 30,000 miles or less. Based around 444 Panasonic NCR18650B cells running in 74p6s configuration. Each module runs at 22.8V nominal and charge to 25.2V max.
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Bear said:
Surely you would be breaking up the packs anyway as you wont want or need a 400V+ battery pack to power your home. Looking at Teslas powerwall the battery voltage is 50V
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Sorry, I should have said break the modules down to the individual cells. I may be completely wrong with my pessimism but I can see that if every OEM's definition of a "module" varies then it must be quite difficult to accommodate that under a general application for end of life units.

e.g.
Tesla 5.3kWh @22.8V
Leaf 1.67kWh @14V
i3 4.14kWh @44.4V
 
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I am pretty sure there will be huge demand for used pack agreements from manufacturers, that is if they are not using them internally or with another subsidiary. Re-use vs recycling, either way it will be a huge business for the cells, or raw materials that can be recovered relatively easily with modern recycling advancement.
 
lordrobs said:
Sorry, I should have said break the modules down to the individual cells. I may be completely wrong with my pessimism but I can see that if every OEM's definition of a "module" varies then it must be quite difficult to accommodate that under a general application for end of life units.

e.g.
Tesla 5.3kWh @22.8V
Leaf 1.67kWh @14V
i3 4.14kWh @44.4V
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Not really, Tesla uses 50V for their powerwall, so two of their modules in series and however many paralleled up to give them the required storage. It doesn’t really matter whether the manufacturers that will be building the packs for home storage uses 4 Leaf modules in series and however many in parallel or use however many i3 modules in parallel, the inverter and BMS will be much the same. All that may be different in reality is the form factor of the final pack due to the differing modules which isn’t really a big deal. I would presume the home storage companies will have deals with specific manufacturers anyway, so the variability in modules would probably not exist anyway
 
RoboCod said:
And once you get used to full regen switched on, you barely use the brake pedal either, just feather the go pedal as required.
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Pretty much this.

Sold my Model 3 brake pedal on ebay....Never used it with the regen being so easy to use.

(joking obviously but it's barely used at all)
 
I get it's a matter of opinion but I didn't like one pedal driving when I tried it (BMW i3). At first it was very jerky until I realised you need to gradually reduce or modulate the acceleration rather than lift off completely. Though even when I got good at it, it I just felt like it was a solution looking for a problem.

I prefer the Audi/VW method of allowing the brake pedal to be the regen method. That way when you switch from ICE to EV the transition is much more natural.
 
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ICDP said:
I get it's a matter of opinion but I didn't like one pedal driving when I tried it (BMW i3). At first it was very jerky until I realised you need to gradually reduce or modulate the acceleration rather than lift off completely. Though even when I got good at it, it I just felt like it was a solution looking for a problem.

I prefer the Audi/VW method of allowing the brake pedal to be the regen method. That way when you switch from ICE to EV the transition is much more natural.
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The one pedal driving, for me, is just awesome. It took me a while to get used to it, but using a brake pedal now (when I drive other cars), just seems so ancient.
 
Basher said:
The one pedal driving, for me, is just awesome. It took me a while to get used to it, but using a brake pedal now (when I drive other cars), just seems so ancient.
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I get that some people like it and did get used to doing it. I liked when I tried the Audi E-Tron and the brake pedal (or paddle shifts) was the regen and lifting off the throttle would let the car coast for what seemed like miles on a motorway. It just felt like a good compromise where you could choose how much regen you wanted.

For me the ability to switch between regen modes is the best option because the driver decides based on the situation. Unfortunatley the full fat E-Tron does not have a switch where you can toggle as you desire. The new VAG MEB platform does allow this with B mode toggle.
 
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BMW dont let you adjust regen on the X5. There is either none on eco mode so you coast or strong regen which brings you to a complete stop on sports mode. AFAIK from reading up on it.
 
ICDP said:
I get it's a matter of opinion but I didn't like one pedal driving when I tried it (BMW i3). At first it was very jerky until I realised you need to gradually reduce or modulate the acceleration rather than lift off completely. Though even when I got good at it, it I just felt like it was a solution looking for a problem.

I prefer the Audi/VW method of allowing the brake pedal to be the regen method. That way when you switch from ICE to EV the transition is much more natural.
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Having never been in or near an EV I went to Drive Green south of Bath with the intention of buying an i3. I had looked at them online only. They had 3 and I picked one and said I'll that one thanks. They were not expecting that as they didn't have to do any selling or anything :)

Anyway I got in it for a quick drive down the road and as I pulled out of the lot I lifted off too quickly forgetting the regen. After a couple of jerky corrections though my brain recalibrated and ever since I've really liked regen on the accel pedal. After 2 years in a TM3 it's become natural.

I'd like to try a paddle setup sometime to see which system I prefer. Either would do me anyway.
 
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