EV general discussion

[OspreyO]

What a terrible comparison and reeks of anti EV BS. You are portraying a cam belt failure on a high mileage ICE as a simple and easy cam belt replacement. The chances of a cam belt failure without proper maintenance is incredibly high and the results are catastrophic. This usually means a write off on older high mileage ICE.

A battery pack failure is exceptionally rare in a modern (post 2020) EV with decent BMS. The vast majority of credible sources indicate an EV battery will last longer than the rest of the car.

A far more accurate comparison would be a total engine failure on an older high mileage ICE. Even then pretty much all EVs have an 8 year ~100,000 mile battery warranty. So for the vast VAST majority of owners, a battery failure will fall under warranty and would be very rare.

The stories you hear about “new” EVs being written off due to replacement battery costs are generally because of a crash resulting in excessive damage. Or if they fall outside warranty.

So when you read of the EV6 having a battery failure at 104,000 miles, that’s because it is not covered under warranty and the car is worth a lot less than a new 77kWh battery.

Some of the repair costs for modern ICE and PHEVs are eye watering. Making them unviable economically to repair.

With EVs manufacturers have caused a situation where no one wants them outside warranty. Thats because they've dropped the ball on repairability on both EVs and ICE.

 

[OspreyO]

EV depreciation will normalise in time. The current high levels are a result of rapid development and improvement in these cars as well as ever dropping prices for key components. ICE cars also got better over time, of course, but it's a long time since we've seen such a rapid change in the range and quality of ICE cars that we've seen in EVs over the last 5-10 years.

There's no inherent reason EVs must depreciate faster, the opposite if anything.



EVs really do add journey time on longer journeys, but not at a horrific level and most people win all of that back and more through the fact you're not having to go and fill it up every couple of weeks or so. The ability to charge at home is a much bigger win than needing to stop for 15 minutes to charge every so often on a longer trip.



And there's the "but". The infrastructure is still too sparse and too costly for people who can't charge at home.

There will always be a use case for ICE. I can't see that going away. But for the vast majority an EV is a better bit for their use.

 

[OspreyO]

We are already there but the price parity is not enough as it adds to journey time “on paper”. We both know people tend to stop for a break but the mental block will be the “having to stop” rather than “choosing to stop”. This is especially important for those who have no home charging access.

Then they should buy an ICE. Either someone is up for the challenge of switching tech. Or they are not. If someone are insisting on buying an EV without home charging and uncomfortable with change, they are an idiot buying one.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

Nearly a year since I took the plunge and switched to an EV. It’s saved me an absolute fortune in running costs and the comfort levels are through the roof. There’s one thing I didn’t think I’d miss or notice, but that’s the lack of gear changes and rumbling of the engine, especially in traffic.

 

[Dr Jack]

Then they should buy an ICE. Either someone is up for the challenge of switching tech. Or they are not. If someone are insisting on buying an EV without home charging and uncomfortable with change, they are an idiot buying one.

This doesn't really address or answer the challenges of switching almost everyone over to EVs in the coming decades.

 

[OspreyO]

Agreed. A total ICE ban would be stupid without investing in an infrastructure that works for ever car owner. I see the ban being moved because they as usual had hoped the private sector would rescue them. The truth is capitalism doesn’t work when it comes to “doing the right thing”, only what drives the market.

I think there's been a lot of anti FUD from industry and media that has been allowed to fester. The industry has also shot itself in both feet with price gouging. The industry has been caught out in price war with the Chinese state. It's now looking for a way out. The way out looks like being to push all the progress out for another decade or so.

 

[Buddy]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Looks like I'm going full EV (realized the BIK is favorable and a few other advantages).

I'm currently looking at the KIA EV5, which is fairly new and has had some welcome changes made for Europe (it's been out in the rest of the world for a while).

I did briefly eyeball the Sealion 7 at the local garage. Based on reviews the range of 300 is questionable vs the more established KIA. Thoughts or experiences with these chinese cars would be welcome.

Open to any other suggestions.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

I think there's been a lot of anti FUD from industry and media that has been allowed to fester. The industry has also shot itself in both feet with price gouging. The industry has been caught out in price war with the Chinese state. It's now looking for a way out. The way out looks like being to push all the progress out for another decade or so.

Ultimately moving things even more in China’s favour.

 

[OspreyO]

Nearly a year since I took the plunge and switched to an EV. It’s saved me an absolute fortune in running costs and the comfort levels are through the roof. There’s one thing I didn’t think I’d miss or notice, but that’s the lack of gear changes and rumbling of the engine, especially in traffic.

I do not miss the work of changing gear in heavy traffic. Or the noise and pollution in traffic.

Number of times where I enjoy a sweeping relatively traffic free road to work the gears and engine has dwindled to probably 5% of my journeys. There's just too much congestion these days.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

I do not miss the work of changing gear in heavy traffic. Or the noise and pollution in traffic.

Number of times where I enjoy a sweeping relatively traffic free road to work the gears and engine has dwindled to probably 5% of my journeys. There's just too much congestion these days.

Ultimately another reason I made the switch. Between traffic, potholes and flooded roads my last car was becoming less viable. I just press self drive in traffic now and leave the car do its thing.

 

[OspreyO]

Ultimately moving things even more in China’s favour.

That state wants and needs the income from Western industries. They have no problem collapsing western economies for their own gain. Private companies do not have the deep pockets to fight that.

 

[lordrobs]

A battery pack failure is exceptionally rare in a modern (post 2020) EV with decent BMS. The vast majority of credible sources indicate an EV battery will last longer than the rest of the car.

I'm not sure just how many EV owners we have actively on these forums but we've had at least one VAG module failure, one or was it two Jag module failures and now the Kia that has been written off. I don't think any of these have had to be paid for out of the owners pocket yet but it does seem to be disproportionately high when compared with statements like "The vast majority of credible sources indicate an EV battery will last longer than the rest of the car."

Unless we are talking Triggers broom when we are referring to them lasting longer than the rest of the car.

It wouldn't be a personal consideration when choosing a car but I also don't think it is a completely unreasonable concern either.

 

[ICDP]

So you have 4 known cases on these forum out of a large number who have owned one or more EVs? Sorry but I’m not going on anecdotal “this forum” numbers but actual data available from manufacturers.

Current battery pack failure rates are at 0.1% or 1 in 1000 and trending lower.

 

[ICDP]

Then they should buy an ICE. Either someone is up for the challenge of switching tech. Or they are not. If someone are insisting on buying an EV without home charging and uncomfortable with change, they are an idiot buying one.

Agreed, this was my point. The incentive is not there for quite a large number of people.

 

[chanjy]

I'm not sure just how many EV owners we have actively on these forums but we've had at least one VAG module failure, one or was it two Jag module failures and now the Kia that has been written off. I don't think any of these have had to be paid for out of the owners pocket yet but it does seem to be disproportionately high when compared with statements like "The vast majority of credible sources indicate an EV battery will last longer than the rest of the car."

Unless we are talking Triggers broom when we are referring to them lasting longer than the rest of the car.

It wouldn't be a personal consideration when choosing a car but I also don't think it is a completely unreasonable concern either.

I think you're conflating issues a bit.

A battery has a lot of cells, and some cells can fail but it doesn't mean your battery hasn't lasted the lifetime of your car.

On an ICE you may get an oil leak that you need to replace some parts for, but you can still say you are on your original engine.

 

[sovietspybob]

With the person with an EV6 at 104,000 miles, if they were leasing an ICE BMW say surely the outcome would be exactly the same?

The leasing company would write it off as what is the cost of a new engine from BMW? Probably not too dissimilar to a new battery pack in a Kia?

They'll cut their losses and punt it to salvage auction where someone will buy it and repair it on the cheap with a 2nd hand engine, exactly the same as the EV6 will be bought by someone to repair the cells which are faulty.

 

[Dr Jack]

I think there's been a lot of anti FUD from industry and media that has been allowed to fester. The industry has also shot itself in both feet with price gouging. The industry has been caught out in price war with the Chinese state. It's now looking for a way out. The way out looks like being to push all the progress out for another decade or so.

Nothing to do with price gouging just straight forward idiotic, short-sighted industrial leadership and even dumber political leadership. Germany, and other major car making nations, should have made sure they were the first countries in the world to ban ICE; they should have been putting billions into building out infrastructure; and made sure that they kept their advantage going into the EV era. Instead, they dragged their feet, industry leaders lobbied against anything to help EVs or limit ICE cars, and politicians pushed back EV mandates. The result is clear to see: China is going to be the leading car maker of the EV era while older brands suffer.

 

[jpaul]

I thought you had an ID3, would you currently switch to Chinese with a poorer maintenance network.

So you have 4 known cases on these forum out of a large number who have owned one or more EVs? Sorry but I’m not going on anecdotal “this forum” numbers but actual data available from manufacturers.

Current battery pack failure rates are at 0.1% or 1 in 1000 and trending lower.

you mean module failure ? in that stat.
obviously there has been publicity about the I-pace modules, vag moudules, some tesla cells from china, stellantis ac chargers, which do have echos of wet-belt type failures
but it gets back to the point that module replacement during warranty is fine; but represent excessive repair cost if you had to do it outside warranty

 

[sovietspybob]

I thought you had an ID3, would you currently switch to Chinese with a poorer maintenance network.



you mean module failure ? in that stat.
obviously there has been publicity about the I-pace modules, vag moudules, some tesla cells from china, stellantis ac chargers, which do have echos of wet-belt type failures
but it gets back to the point that module replacement during warranty is fine; but represent excessive repair cost if you had to do it outside warranty

I'd be interested to know what the actual cost of a module replacement is from a 3rd party?

Isn't just having a wet belt changed well over a grand on very ordinary cars like a fiesta or a Corsa?

A single E-tron module is about £300 2nd hand, i believe Leaf modules are only around £60 and commonly its usually only a couple that need replacing, so there'd be costs in dropping the main pack, opening it and replacing it but it's probably no more extensive than a modern cam belt which is routine maintenance.

 

[Journey]

I thought you had an ID3, would you currently switch to Chinese with a poorer maintenance network.

Nothing could be poorer than VAG.