Everton and zero money - Updated 17/11/23

[Azza]

This could easily go in the banter thread but here's just as appropriate. Following on from a few comments at Everton's AGM last night, more details on Everton's new ground and potential deal with the council have come out today.

Previously it was suggested that Everton would borrow the money for the ground themselves and that the council would act as a guarantor, with Everton paying a fee to the council for this service. With the cost of the ground rising from £300-350m to £450-500m, the deal with the council has changed. Instead of guaranteeing Everton's loan, the council will now borrow £280m on Everton's behalf with Everton paying the council a premium on top of whatever interest they're being charged and these repayments will be secured against TV money and season ticket sales. This leaves Everton the small matter of finding funding for the other £200m odd .

A couple of points. Assuming all the above is indeed accurate, how do Everton plan to raise the other £200m? If the Mersey billionaires need the council to borrow the money on their behalf to get a half decent rate and are having to use TV and season ticket money as security on this deal, what hope have they got of finding the rest of the money? Also, around a year or so ago Rick Parry (Liverpool's old CEO) was interviewed by a fan podcast and asked about Liverpool's previous stadium debate and specifically why Liverpool didn't look at the docks - his answer was that it wasn't big enough but went on to talk about Everton's previously failed move there. According to him Everton only needed to come up with £7m (iirc) in order to secure funding for their new stadium at the time. How times have changed.

The rest of the money will come from other partners & sponsors - who they might be though is unknown and I don't trust Elstone in finding that sort of money. So it'll probably never happen.

I presume when Everton went to say X Dodgy Bank they wanted 6%, LCC can get the money from Y Dodgy Bank at 2% - Everton can pay LCC more for facilitating the loan than what LCC would get form just being the guarantor, but it would keep the overall cost lowers for Everton. If that makes sense.

Kings Dock we needed £30m, not £7m. Kenwright actually claimed that money was 'ring fenced' and he was waiting on the check from Fortress Sports Fund (Christopher Samuelson, proper dodgy outfit who headed up take over of Reading a few years a go with some fraudster Russians) but the check never appeared. Paul Gregg actually said he'll provide the money as an interest free loan but Kenwright had fell out with him and kept blocking and refusing him, presumbly over Philip Green's shadow involvment in Everton, Gregg sold his shared to Green's other puppet Robert Earl and that was the end of that.

 

[BaZ87]

The rest of the money will come from other partners & sponsors - who they might be though is unknown and I don't trust Elstone in finding that sort of money. So it'll probably never happen.

I presume when Everton went to say X Dodgy Bank they wanted 6%, LCC can get the money from Y Dodgy Bank at 2% - Everton can pay LCC more for facilitating the loan than what LCC would get form just being the guarantor, but it would keep the overall cost lowers for Everton. If that makes sense.

Kings Dock we needed £30m, not £7m. Kenwright actually claimed that money was 'ring fenced' and he was waiting on the check from Fortress Sports Fund (Christopher Samuelson, proper dodgy outfit who headed up take over of Reading a few years a go with some fraudster Russians) but the check never appeared. Paul Gregg actually said he'll provide the money as an interest free loan but Kenwright had fell out with him and kept blocking and refusing him, presumbly over Philip Green's shadow involvment in Everton, Gregg sold his shared to Green's other puppet Robert Earl and that was the end of that.

Regarding sponsors and partners making up the difference - good luck with that.

I understand the principle of what's happening with the council but the question I'm asking is how a club that's supposedly now got all these super rich backers can't get finance easier and cheaper than paying the council to borrow the money on their behalf. If as reported and this council deal is going to be secured against TV and season ticket money then it's going to make securing the rest of the money incredibly hard.

As for the Kings Dock, I'm aware that at the time it was being reported that Everton needed to find £30m. I've just listened back to the interview to double check what was said and the figure Parry quoted was actually £12m not £7m but either way, he was directly asked about the Kings Dock opportunity to Everton (in relation to whether it was a possibility to Liverpool) and was quoted this £30m figure and his response was that it wasn't even £30m, you only needed to find £12m to make it work.

 

[BaZ87]

Everton's AGM tonight. They're usually fun.

 

[omnomnom]

It's excellent is this. Personal favourite:

Everton owner Farhad Moshiri: "I have spent £250m on turning a museum into a competitive outfit."

With what? 10th?

 

[explicit4u]

Everton unveil plans for £500m new stadium in Liverpool docklands area

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...il-plans-new-stadium-liverpool-docklands-area



Looks pretty epic! Gotta love a football stadium right by a body of water.

 

[BaZ87]

It does look fantastic but if or when will it be built? It's over 2 years since they announced the stadium and they still haven't even applied for planning permission.

 

[FishFluff]

It does look fantastic but if or when will it be built? It's over 2 years since they announced the stadium and they still haven't even applied for planning permission.

It's 100% happening. I know a guy (a Gooner, so no reason to lie) who's been involved in the finance side of things. It's about damn time.

 

[BaZ87]

I'm skeptical. Despite what some probably think, I don't dislike Everton and would like to see the stadium built, if only because it'll be good for the City but it's difficult to see how the numbers can add up.

Working on the basis of the stadium costing £500m, which appears optimistic, the cost of financing the build is going to be upwards of £25m per year. Everton's total matchday revenue from their last set of accounts (17/18 season) was £16m. Just to cover the costs of building the stadium and make the same money as now, Everton will have to increase matchday revenue by over 150%. Facilities at Goodison might not be the best and I'm sure a shiney new stadium will attract a few more new supporters but it's difficult to see how Everton can increase their matchday revenue enough to make the stadium work. I've just checked and Everton's first home game of the season is currently on a general sale - there just isn't the demand for tickets to squeeze ticket prices up and or push ordinary fans into buy £150-250 corporate seats and without that where does this extra £25m per year come from?

 

[FMF]

Naming rights,
Corporate tickets which Goodison is notoriously poor for.
Closer to city centre for fans that just want a PL experience.
Greater general capacity as Goodison has one of the highest % full in the EPL.

 

[BaZ87]

Naming rights,
Corporate tickets which Goodison is notoriously poor for.
Closer to city centre for fans that just want a PL experience.
Greater general capacity as Goodison has one of the highest % full in the EPL.

How much would naming rights be worth? Spurs, a much more attractive proposition from a commercial pov, still haven't managed to get a naming rights deal for their new ground and neither have West Ham with the Olympic stadium which is a far more iconic stadium than Everton's will be. Big naming rights deals seem to be exclusive to the US - we've never seen any interest in them over here.

As I said, I'm sure having a shiney new stadium on the docks and better facilities will help but just to put things into perspective look at Liverpool's Main Stand expansion. Liverpool increased capacity by 9,000 seats, over 6,000 of those were corporate tickets and matchday revenue increased by roughly £20m*, which wouldn't even cover the cost of building Everton's ground. Is there the demand for tickets for Everton to increase attendances by 9-10k? I'm not convinced. You can get a ticket for Everton's first home game of the season without any problems, in comparison Liverpool sold out for every home game in the first half of the season (all they've put on sale so far) without a general sale. Just selling 10k more tickets wouldn't be enough anyway, you need to be selling that many corporate tickets and I just can't see how that happens. The only way Liverpool manage it is because demand for regular seats is so high that they're pushing ordinary supporters into buying these £250 tickets because they can't get a £50 ticket. If Everton are building a 50k seater stadium you'll have no problem getting a £50 ticket so there's little to no demand for those £200 tickets.

*It's difficult to compare exactly as each season you'll play different numbers of home games etc

 

[FishFluff]

You can get a ticket for Everton's first home game of the season without any problems

If you want a restricted view. Which is exactly what stops supporters like me from being bothered going to the game. I'll be trying to get a season ticket for the new stadium when it happens, but I'm not paying to sit behind a pillar!

 

[FMF]

How much would naming rights be worth? Spurs, a much more attractive proposition from a commercial pov, still haven't managed to get a naming rights deal for their new ground and neither have West Ham with the Olympic stadium which is a far more iconic stadium than Everton's will be. Big naming rights deals seem to be exclusive to the US - we've never seen any interest in them over here.

As I said, I'm sure having a shiney new stadium on the docks and better facilities will help but just to put things into perspective look at Liverpool's Main Stand expansion. Liverpool increased capacity by 9,000 seats, over 6,000 of those were corporate tickets and matchday revenue increased by roughly £20m*, which wouldn't even cover the cost of building Everton's ground. Is there the demand for tickets for Everton to increase attendances by 9-10k? I'm not convinced. You can get a ticket for Everton's first home game of the season without any problems, in comparison Liverpool sold out for every home game in the first half of the season (all they've put on sale so far) without a general sale. Just selling 10k more tickets wouldn't be enough anyway, you need to be selling that many corporate tickets and I just can't see how that happens. The only way Liverpool manage it is because demand for regular seats is so high that they're pushing ordinary supporters into buying these £250 tickets because they can't get a £50 ticket. If Everton are building a 50k seater stadium you'll have no problem getting a £50 ticket so there's little to no demand for those £200 tickets.

*It's difficult to compare exactly as each season you'll play different numbers of home games etc

Emirates, Etihad, Vitality, Amex

The issue with naming rights is primarily because clubs have been at one ground for years without a corporate sponsor, a new ground would allow this.

If Liverpool/ Utd moved grounds I'm sure a huge rights deal would be reached.

RE: West Ham and Spurs, I'm sure they are just waiting for the right deal, we already have our sponsor set-up, USM

Location and match day experience will improve greatly both of which will increase attendance. I'm not saying it would fill every game but pretty sure it would be a money maker.

 

[BaZ87]

If you want a restricted view. Which is exactly what stops supporters like me from being bothered going to the game. I'll be trying to get a season ticket for the new stadium when it happens, but I'm not paying to sit behind a pillar!

Possibly but if the demand was there to sell an extra 10k+ tickets and more importantly, 5k+ corporate tickets then these tickets would be selling now.

Emirates, Etihad, Vitality, Amex

The issue with naming rights is primarily because clubs have been at one ground for years without a corporate sponsor, a new ground would allow this.

If Liverpool/ Utd moved grounds I'm sure a huge rights deal would be reached.

RE: West Ham and Spurs, I'm sure they are just waiting for the right deal, we already have our sponsor set-up, USM

Location and match day experience will improve greatly both of which will increase attendance. I'm not saying it would fill every game but pretty sure it would be a money maker.

I completely understand the issue with naming rights of existing grounds but I'm talking about new stadiums. Arsenal got and get peanuts for the naming rights of their ground - they signed a combined shirt and naming rights deal with the naming rights element worth around £3-4m per year. That deal had big long term effects though as Arsenal were tied into a long deal and saw all their rivals sign massive shirt sponsorship deals well in excess of theirs. A quick google tells me Bournemouth are getting around £1m per season and Brighton £450k for their deals.

I know Liverpool tried to get a naming rights deal for our new Main Stand but nobody came up with enough money for it to be worthwhile. And you're right, West Ham and Spurs are waiting for the right deal but West Ham have been playing at the Olympic stadium for 2(?) years now and Spurs stadium was due to open a year ago and haven't found that right deal. Naming rights are a bonus and not something you can bank on.

I'm not trying to knock Everton but there's a reason why 2 years after you announced this stadium you've still not even applied for planning permission. Football stadiums are just too expensive to build without massive demand for tickets, demand that will allow the club to increase prices and sell these stupid £200 tickets which are basically an ordinary seat with a canteen type meal and free program. It's no different with Liverpool and the Anfield Road extension. There's more than enough demand for FSG to extend the Anfield Road end by another 6-7k seats but 6k £50 seats doesn't interest them, especially if those extra seats mean a drop in demand for the £200 tickets. They're delaying things until they can figure out how to add more corporate seats and or demand has reached a level where extending the ground won't result in them struggling to sell the 'cheap' hospitality tickets.

 

[BaZ87]

Everton have or will be applying for planning permission for their new stadium today. I honestly hope this goes ahead but I'm still sceptical.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1208975519582167041

 

[Street]

I can't see why it won't go ahead at this point. The council are desperate to regenerate that area as it's a hole and the stadium will be the kickstarter for the regeneration.

Possibly but if the demand was there to sell an extra 10k+ tickets and more importantly, 5k+ corporate tickets then these tickets would be selling now.

We've hit our season ticket cap for the last few years and the waiting list is quite big now. This year our attendances have been about 2-300 off of capacity for every game and the seats that don't sell are sat right behind pillars. Our corporate facilities are severely lacking compared to other clubs so we are missing out on a chunk there. Also, with the new stadium being in town, it will be much easier for the day trippers to visit. The club prefers day trippers as they'll visit the shop, buy merchandise, a programme, drinks, food etc, whereas I rock up on my season ticket and very rarely spend any extra.

 

[BaZ87]

Season ticket waiting lists can be somewhat misleading though. How many people will actually follow through with a purchase once a ticket becomes available and more importantly, how many are already attending but buying tickets game by game? That said I have no doubt that your attendances will go up in a new stadium - the novelty factor of a new stadium and the location making it more accessible will bring new fans in. I'm not convinced it's likely but even an extra 10k supporters at regular ticket prices won't pay for a new stadium though. There needs to be a big increase in corporate tickets.

I mentioned earlier in the thread, Liverpool added 9k seats, around 6k of which were corporate tickets and that added approx £20m per year to our matchday revenue. To finance your new stadium it's going to cost £25m odd per season - using Liverpool's numbers as a basis, you're going to need to increase attendances by 15,000 with over 5,000 of those as corporate tickets just to cover the costs. To achieve those numbers won't be easy until the side starts performing better on a consistant basis. In fact I'll go as far to say that Everton need to be almost certainties for a European spot before the stadium becomes financially viable - that will be a sign that the team is doing well which in turn will increase demand for tickets and then of course you have the guarantee of an extra 3+ home games per season to generate more money.

 

[Trusty]

That stadium really does look amazing. Can't see why the planning permission will be turned down, its good for the city and general area.

 

[BaZ87]

There's no chance it'll be turned down. They've been working with the council on this for years.

 

[elmuzzy66.]

As long as the council aids Everton in the same fashion as liverpool....

 

[Minusorange]

lol Everton getting bankrolled by Usmanov in the shadows, he's just paid £30million for first option on naming rights for the new stadium