EVF vs OVF

What statement isn't true? I've posted a personal opinion that EVF and mirrorlews aren't there yet for me and that DSLRs still have the upper hand when performance matters. It is an opinion, I can't be wrong, it is personal.

Now I also believe the same constraints and issues hold true for many professionals which is why DSLRs still dominate and sony/fuji/olympus/Panasonic are failing to grab any significant market share from.


If I only shot landscape I would drop the D800 for the A7r (as long as Sony adds a true 14bit RAW).
As it is I use my Oly emp-2 more than my D800 for casual use because the IQ is better than my old D90.


Some people seem to think I'm against EVF and mirrorless, I'm not. I'm a big fan of the concept and look forward to a lighter, smaller, faster future. But currently there are some downsides and non of the advantages of an EVF are important enough for me to lose an OFV, yet. The only real advantage I care about now is the weight loss, But that is variable because it only really matters if you use smaller lighter lenses on a smaller sensor.if you are still trekking around with several KGs of glass, several KGs of tripod and head, plus a bag of filters and batteries, couple of liters of water, food, rain jacket etc, then a few hundred grams lost from the mirror doesn't change things much

You need a better grasp of English, or you are just trolling for the same of it... :eek:

”According to Sony, but according to anyone that has used it they would rather have a DSLR."

That isn't an opinion, that is you making a statement that anyone who has used the Sony A6000 would rather have a DSLR. That plainly isn't true, but you do like to sensationalise so not unexpected :D ;)

We're pretty much of the same opinion for where mirrorless is at the moment (for our specific needs), they are ”good enough" for a lot of uses though. Canikon will probably launch pro mirrorless cams once the tech is there to support it.

You're the first hiker I've seen that hasn't said every gram counts, I'm sure you said it did before? Edit: yeah it was your saying, couple years ago though so I guess you're not a lightweight gear junkie any more? http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=22742928&postcount=35
 
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I find that bulk is more important than weight. That is, I want something less bulky, weight isn't really that important. A winter coat probably weighs a good couple of kg.

The problem with the Sony FE mount is that although the flange distance is super small, many of the lenses (the full frame ones) have what I can only describe as a built in adapter/spacer. Take the kit 28-70mm. A good 2.5cm is not more of it is just there to space the rear element far enough away from the sensor. You don't get that on a DSLR because the flange distance is much larger.

That being said the lenses themselves do tend to be slightly smaller and weight a fair amount less.
 
I find that bulk is more important than weight. That is, I want something less bulky, weight isn't really that important. A winter coat probably weighs a good couple of kg.

The problem with the Sony FE mount is that although the flange distance is super small, many of the lenses (the full frame ones) have what I can only describe as a built in adapter/spacer. Take the kit 28-70mm. A good 2.5cm is not more of it is just there to space the rear element far enough away from the sensor. You don't get that on a DSLR because the flange distance is much larger.

That being said the lenses themselves do tend to be slightly smaller and weight a fair amount less.

Yes, the new 35mm f1.4 isn't exactly small. Using it with smaller MF glass is what interests me. When it was all announced ages back I was hoping they were going to do something special ( the RX1 was so compact with a nice f2 lens) but I was being naive :D
 
You need a better grasp of English, or you are just trolling for the same of it... :eek:

”According to Sony, but according to anyone that has used it they would rather have a DSLR."

That isn't an opinion, that is you making a statement that anyone who has used the Sony A6000 would rather have a DSLR. That plainly isn't true, but you do like to sensationalise so not unexpected :D ;)

We're pretty much of the same opinion for where mirrorless is at the moment (for our specific needs), they are ”good enough" for a lot of uses though. Canikon will probably launch pro mirrorless cams once the tech is there to support it.

You're the first hiker I've seen that hasn't said every gram counts, I'm sure you said it did before? Edit: yeah it was your saying, couple years ago though so I guess you're not a lightweight gear junkie any more? http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=22742928&postcount=35


I didn't know you were referring to that one quote but my general opinion.

You are then mixing so ething about Sony A6000 marketing spiel and general mirrorless uptake. I repeat, Sony claims that the A6000 has the fastestPDAf system - it plainly doesn't and is a long way behind pro DSLR systems, I even posted a quote from one renowned reviewer 4/10 vs 9/10 compared so a prosumer DSLR. Don't fall for marketing talk, everyone is claiming to have the fastest/best/most accurate AF but non of really compare to CaNikon.



As for weight, yes, I really like to go fast and light a lot of the time. A DSLR just doesn't make sense in the some situation, which is why the last big hike I did the D800 sat firmly at home. When you are varying a heavy telephoto lens, tripod and everything else then a couple of hundred grams from the mirror doesn't change anything.

As I said, loosing the mirror really comes in to its own when you reduce the lens size by using a smaller sensor. That is why I have I have an Olympus EPM-2. I get DSLR IQ in a camera that fits in my trouser pocket, and it only weighs 270g.
Loosing the mirror in itself doesn't get you close- the A7 plus a couple of lenses is still several KGs. A long tele lens will be just as heavy.


So there is no contradiction. When I want to go light I go very light, when in don't need to go light I care about performance and the D800 is perfect. They are both very complimentary. Loosing the mirror from the D800 won't change my photography much at all.
 
I find that bulk is more important than weight. That is, I want something less bulky, weight isn't really that important. A winter coat probably weighs a good couple of kg.

The problem with the Sony FE mount is that although the flange distance is super small, many of the lenses (the full frame ones) have what I can only describe as a built in adapter/spacer. Take the kit 28-70mm. A good 2.5cm is not more of it is just there to space the rear element far enough away from the sensor. You don't get that on a DSLR because the flange distance is much larger.

That being said the lenses themselves do tend to be slightly smaller and weight a fair amount less.

I'm the oposite, if a camera gets smaller it gets harder to hold, and when it is on a tripod I don't care about the size.

That being said the 2 are typically linked. More important in reducing both the size and mass is using a smaller sensor.

With regards to the flange distance, as you say it makes no real difference except for a few lenses around 35mm. A 105mm lens has to have its front element 105mm from the sensor. If the flange distance is smaller then you have to have a longer lens with more weight going in to the barrel. You can't cheat physics.

There is no inherent reason why most lenses for mirrorless will be smaller and lighter.. For m43 camera it is because they can get away with a smaller image circle.


For bulk it would be nice to get more collapsing lenses. Nikon have a new collapsing kit lens but in general the m43 system is ways ahead.
 
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I didn't know you were referring to that one quote but my general opinion.

You are then mixing so ething about Sony A6000 marketing spiel and general mirrorless uptake. I repeat, Sony claims that the A6000 has the fastestPDAf system - it plainly doesn't and is a long way behind pro DSLR systems, I even posted a quote from one renowned reviewer 4/10 vs 9/10 compared so a prosumer DSLR. Don't fall for marketing talk, everyone is claiming to have the fastest/best/most accurate AF but non of really compare to CaNikon.



As for weight, yes, I really like to go fast and light a lot of the time. A DSLR just doesn't make sense in the some situation, which is why the last big hike I did the D800 sat firmly at home. When you are varying a heavy telephoto lens, tripod and everything else then a couple of hundred grams from the mirror doesn't change anything.

As I said, loosing the mirror really comes in to its own when you reduce the lens size by using a smaller sensor. That is why I have I have an Olympus EPM-2. I get DSLR IQ in a camera that fits in my trouser pocket, and it only weighs 270g.
Loosing the mirror in itself doesn't get you close- the A7 plus a couple of lenses is still several KGs. A long tele lens will be just as heavy.


So there is no contradiction. When I want to go light I go very light, when in don't need to go light I care about performance and the D800 is perfect. They are both very complimentary. Loosing the mirror from the D800 won't change my photography much at all.

I'm not mixing anything up. I haven't mentioned Sony marketing at all so I don't know where that comes from. You said that anyone who has used an A6000 would still prefer to use a DSLR, which is plainly wrong.
 
Do you have any proof that people would not prefer a DSLR AF system?

Sure, some people might buy an A6000 over a DSLR because it is good enough for their needs, but I doubt they would prefer the A6000 AF over a D7100 or above camera. Just because people are willing to compromise to gain a smaller system doesn't mean they think every single aspect is better.

Weight and size is far more important to some people doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer the better autofocus that a DSLR still provides.
 
Do you have any proof that people would not prefer a DSLR AF system?

Sure, some people might buy an A6000 over a DSLR because it is good enough for their needs, but I doubt they would prefer the A6000 AF over a D7100 or above camera. Just because people are willing to compromise to gain a smaller system doesn't mean they think every single aspect is better.

Weight and size is far more important to some people doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer the better autofocus that a DSLR still provides.

Fill your boots: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=a6000+to+replace+dslr

You'll find people with both views, plenty in there who see no need for a DSLR. One of the first links in DP has someone saying that they see no need to have a D7100 over an A6000.

Here's a thread on the Fuji side: http://www.fujix-forum.com/index.ph...e-as-your-dslr-replacement/page-6#entry335665

Have you even used any of these cameras? For the vast majority of subjects the AF is more than sufficient, with the bonus if bring over accurate and no need to MFA lenses. So its easy to see why a lot of people are happy with them.

Just to clarify in case you missed it, I run a DSLR alongside a mirrorless setup as for me it doesn't replace it. I recognise though that many others have different needs so they are more than happy. There are plenty of Fuji wedding shooters for example. I'm happy, they're happy.
 
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Fill your boots: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=a6000+to+replace+dslr

You'll find people with both views, plenty in there who see no need for a DSLR. One of the first links in DP has someone saying that they see no need to have a D7100 over an A6000.

Here's a thread on the Fuji side: http://www.fujix-forum.com/index.ph...e-as-your-dslr-replacement/page-6#entry335665

Have you even used any of these cameras? For the vast majority of subjects the AF is more than sufficient, with the bonus if bring over accurate and no need to MFA lenses. So its easy to see why a lot of people are happy with them.

Just to clarify in case you missed it, I run a DSLR alongside a mirrorless setup as for me it doesn't replace it. I recognise though that many others have different needs so they are more than happy. There are plenty of Fuji wedding shooters for example. I'm happy, they're happy.

That Google link is completely irreverent to the point in contention - that The A6000 AF is not as good as typical DSLR AF. Something which most dependable reviews are quick to point out, I even linked to an excellent review by Thom Hogan, 4/10 keepers is a long way behind 9/10 form the Nikon D7100.

Sony's claim also has to be taken with a large pinch of salt. They actually say faster than APS-C mirrorless camera which means it is faster than Fuji X, Samsung NX and Canon EOS-M models - but not faster than Nikon 1 or m43 models. The latter 2 are actually faster than than the A6000 in testing.
Plus a lot of what people are saying WRT to auto-focus speed is actually referring to the frame rate - no other APS-C camera does 11FPS, but again the Nikon 1, M43 and FF cameras are that fast. Actually, the Nikon 1 v3 will push out 20FPS with AF, 60GPS when locked!

Sony's claims aren't unique. Olympus made the same claims with the E-M10, Pansoninc with the G4H, Nikon with the V1, Fuji with the X-E2, Samsung wiht the NX1, etc, etc.

https://www.olympus.com.au/Products/CompactSystem-Cameras/OMD-cameras/E-M10.aspx
Combined with the world's fastest focusing system, the E-M5 is a camera that can keep up with your fast paced needs.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/0...ns_compact_camera_selection_with_gf3_snapper/
The standout feature here though is the ability to autofocus in 0.09 seconds, which makes it planet Earth's fastest autofocus system, Panasonic said.

http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/acil/bodies/v1/features02.htm
Fastest AF x Most Focus Points in the World
World’s fastest autofocus: Among digital cameras with interchangeable lens, as determined by Nikon performance tests.


http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x_e2/
With the world's fastest auto focus speed of 0.08 sec

http://www.samsung.com/uk/discover/camera/find-your-signature-with-samsung-nx1/
Discover how the Samsung SMART NX1, the world’s fastest and most accurate interchangeable lens camera,



Great to know that all of the cameras have the world's fastest Autofocus simultaneously, funnily the canon EOS-M is the only one not to hold such a title!:D

Besides which, having the worlds fastest autofocus is useless if the keeper rate is less than half what a DSLR can manage.


You seem to think that I believe people prefer a DSLR in general over a mirorrless. Quite the opposite, clearly many people prefer the smaller lighter mirrorless systems. My only point is that none of them really come close to a DSLR in terms of all out overall performance even if under certain conditions they perform equally or better. Some people are willing to make the sacrifice, or shot in environments where the current limitations are not a constraint to them.

The very first hit I see in your Google link is someone talking about landscapes and star tails - of course the A6000 is just as competent as the D7100. You see in this thread loads f people praising the focus peaking and how great manual focus is, which it clearly is better than an unmodified DSLR but that has nothing to do with DSLR beating autofocus performance!



And yes, I do use these cameras. I own an Olympus m43 that I use far more than my D800. Despite Oly pus claiming the focus system is the worlds fastest and way better than any DSLR, it is isn't. It is perfectly capable, and according to many reviews better than the A6000
http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A6000/verdict.shtml
when shooting side-by-side with Micro Four Thirds models from Olympus and Panasonic, the A6000 wasn't quite as quick. Importantly, the A6000, like other Sony cameras, also became less confident in low light, forcing me to use manual focus to capture city night scenes when the Olympus and Panasonic models autofocused without complaint under the same conditions.


I travel a lot and spend many hours in airports playing with the cameras.
IMO, the Nikon 1 V3 still has the best AF system that is closest to a DSLR (especially in continuous mode), combined with the all out speed and general performance would make me choose a Nikon 1 if AF was a priority. Sadly the current bodies are distinctly lack luster and over priced and the lens collection still too small. The sensors were equivalent to the best m43 sensors at the time but haven't improved since launch and that is now starting to show iMO - I couldn't replace a DSLR with a Nikon 1 but it could complement very well for wildlife and sports work.

The Olympus and Panasonic models are very very good for static AF, face detection, accuracy, and low light stuff but they don't have a continuous AF ability close to Nikon 1 or a DSLR. Nikon V3 also feels snappier. The biggest selling point to the m43 cameras is the lens system is absolutely complete and yet still growing faster than any of the competitors. m43 is the Oly mirrorless system that I could switch to and have zero regrets about lenses.
To me the sensor size is optimal in getter DSLR IQ but with distinctly smaller lenses. The whole systems just makes lense and works well.

The early Fuji models were very sluggish all round IMO, they have got faster. Continuous is still behind. My gripe with the Fujis is the lenses and camera are relatively bulky and heav.this is impart due to excellent build quality and optics, faster prime lenses etc. I see the appeal but the system ends up big. Telephotos are still in short supply and their weight very off putting. For weddings and street work the Fujis are very nice.
Sony has a load of models, some cool tech but none of their camera have really nailed it yet IMO. A6000 is closest, I have only tested briefly with the kit lens but it didn't feel as good focusing as the Nikon j3 that was sat next to it . The lenses are also mostly mediocre and again, quite large.

IF I only shot landscape I would get buy with a A7r if Sony sorted out it raw files and implemented a softer shutter. AF is quite poor IMO on the A7r, better on the A7s. The A7s could be a great wedding camera except there are almost no good lenses yet. Same issue with lens sizes though. If you wanted to do wildlife work with any of these then they just don't work - lenses that are just as big as the DSLR counterparts or simply don't exist. even at the wider-normal range we get f/4.0 zooms or primes that aren't that small.
 
You are way off topic for what I called you on, which was saying anyone who has used an A6000 would prefer a DSLR. You are completely wrong on that and trying to steer things away from that doesn't change that fact.

I am not in the camp that wouldn't want a DSLR over an A6000, I don't think mirrorless AF overall is equal or better than a DSLR. That is just my opinion for my needs (which basically matches yours), others though are more than happy and wouldn't prefer a DSLR at all. Quite simple really!
 
I was replying to a quote that said the A6000 has the world fastest autofocus. My reply was that most people would prefer autofocus from a DSLR and I gave a quote from a review comparing the A6000 AF to a D7100 indicating that the A6000 is still not in DSLR territory for AF. I think you had interpreted my comment in a completely generic way rather than to the quote about AF I was explicitly referring to.

I certainly think that many people will prefer one of the mirrorless system to a DSLR.
 
I was replying to a quote that said the A6000 has the world fastest autofocus. My reply was that most people would prefer autofocus from a DSLR and I gave a quote from a review comparing the A6000 AF to a D7100 indicating that the A6000 is still not in DSLR territory for AF. I think you had interpreted my comment in a completely generic way rather than to the quote about AF I was explicitly referring to.

I certainly think that many people will prefer one of the mirrorless system to a DSLR.

If you'd said "most people" that would've been fine, although still needs a rider. You didn't though, you said "anyone that has used it” which isn't the case. That's all. I'm not interpreting anything, I just read exactly what you posted.
 
Well I personally haven't come across any review that shows the A6000 to outperform typical DSLRs in terms of AF performance, hence my use of anyone. People might prefer it it and I'm not trying to refute that.
My gripe is with the marketing spiel, as I said every man and their dog claims to have a mirrorless that has the world fastest AF system, but none of them are true claims.
 
I agree, that's why I still have a DSLR setup. What I will say though, is that when the PDAF points hit on the X-T1 hit it is very quick. Easily as fast as a DSLR if not quicker, it literally locks as soon as you half depress. It doesn't always do this though :D From that I can see how it will be fine for photographers with lesser requirements than myself.
 
Do LCD screens work the same way as EVFs?
I have an Olympus E-PL5 which just has an LCD on the back.

Biggest issue I have here is that in low light conditions you cannot view with the aperture wide open, as on an OVF on a DSLR - at least not as an automatic process.
 
Yes, the LCDs are the same as the EVF, EVF are just LCD screen with a higher pixel density and se within an eyepiece that remove glare.

With an OVF by default the lens is held with open and you see a DoF at around f/2.2 equivalent or slower if tour kit lens is slower. With a DSLR you can press the DoF button and the camera closes the aperture to what you set it at so you can see the increase in DoF in real time. As a side effect the OVF gets darker.

With a mirrorless the camera can basically do 2 things. Keep the lens wide open the same as a DSLR so the sensor gets the most light possible and you get less noise on the EVF. Or stop the lens down to the user setting, the sensor gets less light so increases amplification - you see more noise in the EVF but the brightness remains similar.

Typically the latter approach is taken, which means when it is dark the LCD screen/EVF becomes very noisy if you have stopped down. I hav an EPM2 that also only has an LCD screen and I suffer the same problems - in low light it basically becomes impossible if you stop down.
 
Can't you just half press the shutter to see the stopped down view on the Olympus?

That would be nice and easy. Or set a customisable button to toggle between wide open and stopped down.
 
Thanks. D.P. Least it wasn't just me!
If there was a way to set that as a custom setting it would be great.
I have dug around the menus and haven't found anything.

I don't do a lot of low light photography but when I do this has been a real pain. The only issue so far I have with EVF and M43.

To be fair, the E-PL5 is a low(ish) end model so maybe it is possible to set something on the OM-D series. Still trying to find out as want another body next year too!
 
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