Existence of God disproved!

[Castiel]

Prove god and then we can talk. Till then I claim magic Hobbits created the universe.

Which would by definition, mean you believe in God. (The only proviso being that your subjective notion of God's nature being that synonymous with a character out of Lord of The Rings.)

However you visualise God, even satirically, doesn't really impact on the belief itself all it means is that you choose a satirical view of the concept.

 

[Uriel]

Not really bizarre. If the god of the bible is benevolent as Christians claim, why are African babies born with AIDS ? Why do African babies die from famine and drought ?

This goes back to theodicy. The biggest thorn in the side of believers. Why does a benevolent god allow bad things to happen ? It's not about free will either, as babies have no free will.

Is that you Mr Fry?

Theodicy is not some unanswerable question. If you look into it you'll find a number of answers which believers of different flavours find both acceptable and consistent with their view of God and reality.

I can guarentee that you will find none of them acceptable (I suspect you have an a priori commitment to their unacceptability) but don't pretend it's some ace in the atheist's pack.

 

[Sliver]

Is that you Mr Fry?

Theodicy is not some unanswerable question. If you look into it you'll find a number of answers which believers of different flavours find both acceptable and consistent with their view of God and reality.

I can guarentee that you will find none of them acceptable (I suspect you have an a priori commitment to their unacceptability) but don't pretend it's some ace in the atheist's pack.

I'm not pretending it's 'some ace in the atheists pack'. Why would you suggest that ? It is a problem for theists though.

This forum makes me smile. You get everything here.

 

[Uriel]

I'm not pretending it's 'some ace in the atheists pack'. Why would you suggest that ? It is a problem for theists though.

This forum makes me smile. You get everything here.

I contend that it isn't a problem for some theists.

 

[Sliver]

I contend that it isn't a problem for some theists.

Contend away. I'm awaiting your contention.

 

[jmc007]

Death came into the world when eve was deceived by Satan.

b.t.w. What are you doing to help the African children?

 

[Sliver]

Death came into the world when eve was deceived by Satan.

Satan ? I thought it was a talking snake. Or does Satan move in mysterious ways too ?

 

[jmc007]

It was a talking snake, who was Satan, i.e. Lucifer.

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[Sliver]

It was a talking snake, who was Satan, i.e. Lucifer.

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is why I'm so interested in religion. Any old nonsense can be interpreted in an almost infinite number of contradictory ways.

 

[Dolph]

I'm not pretending it's 'some ace in the atheists pack'. Why would you suggest that ? It is a problem for theists though.

This forum makes me smile. You get everything here.

What evidence do you have that it is a problem for theists, as opposed to what you think a theist should feel? Their trust is already different to yours.

 

[Uriel]

Contend away. I'm awaiting your contention.

Erm - It's like the Grolsch advert....

My own view on the 'problem' of evil leans towards that proposed by Irenaeus of Lyon. You can look it up if you want to.

His entire works are included within this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Ante-Nicene-Post-Nicene-Fathers-Collection-ebook/dp/B00KYBSUUM (Edit: 16 million words for 2 quid - you can't say that's not value! - and no I've not read it all).

or look up "Irenaean theodicy" on wikipedia for a very brief summary.

It's not the only game in town, but on reading Irenaeus, I realised that he was broadly describing a similar potion to my own.

 

[Sliver]

What evidence do you have that it is a problem for theists, as opposed to what you think a theist should feel? Their trust is already different to yours.

If you don't understand theodicy, google it. That's what I did.

 

[Dolph]

Wow. You've made a lot of assumptions in that post and they are all wrong. You haven't taken on board anything I have said, all you have done is argue the opposite.

Everything I have said is my honest opinion. I stand by it 100% till proven otherwise. If you disagree, and you do, then we must agree to disagree and move on. It seems like this discussion has run it's course.

Fair enough, as I said, I am not challenging your position, only the expectation that others must share your elevation of it above the similarly subjective views of others.

 

[Uriel]

If you don't understand theodicy, google it. That's what I did.

And on googling it, I don't suppose you came across any theists / theologians that seemed to have come up with answers that satisfied themselves about the issue?

 

[Dolph]

If you don't understand theodicy, google it. That's what I did.

I understand it, I am just highlighting that not all who worship the Abrahamic God, and certainly not all theists, have an issue with it.

Remember, religion and theism is not limited to the Abrahamic God, and not all religions ascribe such qualities to their deities.

 

[Sliver]

And on googling it, I don't suppose you came across any theists / theologians that seemed to have come up with answers that satisfied themselves about the issue?

Some theists see what they want to see and reject facts and evidence that goes against their theology. There are arguments from theists which attempt to resolve the problem of evil, but I've yet to find one that is satisfactory. Most tend to fall back on free will, which is a flaccid argument, which has been debunked more times than I care to count.

Atheists, not so much. Atheists tend to care about what is true. So atheists value empirical evidence. No empirical evidence, no belief. Simple.

 

[Sliver]

I understand it, I am just highlighting that not all who worship the Abrahamic God, and certainly not all theists, have an issue with it.

Remember, religion and theism is not limited to the Abrahamic God, and not all religions ascribe such qualities to their deities.

I understand this. However, we were focused on the Abrahamic faiths. If you want to transcend to polytheism, crack on.

 

[Dolph]

I understand this. However, we were focused on the Abrahamic faiths. If you want to transcend to polytheism, crack on.

Speak for yourself, I was never focused exclusively on atheism vs Abrahamic theism.

 

[jmc007]

This is why I'm so interested in religion. Any old nonsense can be interpreted in an almost infinite number of contradictory ways.

No, there is the Bible, read it for yourself and interpret it for yourself. Say read one of the Gospels for yourself. There is only one way to interpret it, it's like if you read Lord of the rings, there is only one story laid out there.
It is getting very interesting to say the least with end time prophecies coming to fruition. Ezekiel 38 & 39. These countries coming against Israel to wipe them out.

Magog = Modern Day Russia
Persia = Modern Day Iran
Cush = Modern Day Ethiopia
Put = Modern Day Libya
Gomer = Modern Day Eastern Europe
Beth Togarmah = Modern Day Turkey

Look like steps are maybe progressing that way?

And the words of Psalm 83, that echo that prophecy.

O God, do not remain silent;
do not turn a deaf ear,
do not stand aloof, O God.
2 See how your enemies growl,
how your foes rear their heads.
3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
4 “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.”

 

[Sliver]

Speak for yourself, I was never focused exclusively on atheism vs Abrahamic theism.

Ok.