Expensive equipment, help me understand.

turbot1984 said:
Never tried it? Both have DACs, new ESS Sabre in Wiim, much older Burr Brown in Naim. The preamp section is light years better in the Naim.
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I'd expect so. But as a streamer digital out?

Also app support is just as important the naim could be highest quality streamer in the world...but if the app is unusable, unstable etc...

I only use wiim app for room eq, use lms instead
 
Coincidentally I’ve just read this thread whilst having a rare moment to chill - kids are in bed - and to sit and listen to some music on my hifi setup.

It’s taken time, investment and lots of changing/swapping to get to a system I felt happy with, however tonight inevitability I started googling upgrades for specific components. Shockingly audio manufacturers are continuously releasing ‘improved’ products and discontinuing their previous ‘signature’ range(s), which are then seemingly worth peanuts on the s/h market…

I’m probably over £50k into this particular rabbit hole and it’s not even my main hobby. I’m by no means on the breadline, but after hypothetically working out what I’d need to spend - based on reviews/forums etc. - just to stay ‘current’, the realisation hit me that it was all rather pointless and just spending money for the sake of it. I’m happy with my current setup, regardless of all the new bells and whistles I’m now being told I should have. I think once you get to a level ‘you’ genuinely feel happy with, get out of the rabbit hole and just enjoy it.
 
naefeart said:
Coincidentally I’ve just read this thread whilst having a rare moment to chill - kids are in bed - and to sit and listen to some music on my hifi setup.

It’s taken time, investment and lots of changing/swapping to get to a system I felt happy with, however tonight inevitability I started googling upgrades for specific components. Shockingly audio manufacturers are continuously releasing ‘improved’ products and discontinuing their previous ‘signature’ range(s), which are then seemingly worth peanuts on the s/h market…

I’m probably over £50k into this particular rabbit hole and it’s not even my main hobby. I’m by no means on the breadline, but after hypothetically working out what I’d need to spend - based on reviews/forums etc. - just to stay ‘current’, the realisation hit me that it was all rather pointless and just spending money for the sake of it. I’m happy with my current setup, regardless of all the new bells and whistles I’m now being told I should have. I think once you get to a level ‘you’ genuinely feel happy with, get out of the rabbit hole and just enjoy it.
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Yep!
 
turbot1984 said:
Dunno chaps? Cars are are a great analogy, people somehow convince themselves that Skoda diesels are 'better' than BMW's costing £££'s more, but they are just justifying their purchase.
There is a degree of snake oil in high-end hifi for sure, but in the £500 to £10000 system range, nope. More cash gets you a better listening experience.
I've got a Wiim streamer/preamp (£350) and a Naim Atom HE streamer/preamp (£2,300) and have done many AB tests, its like night and day.
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Cars are far more easily observable in performance metrics, audio is not and I'd argue it's a poor example. A car can go from 0-60 in 3 seconds or it can go from 0-60 in 6 seconds, we're not talking about low end vehicles here to make a direct comparison, we're talking about higher end vehicles where preference is very much king.

Room acoustics are far more important to speakers than the speakers are far earlier into the chain, and good lord DAC claims to this day make me laugh, let alone cables and worse weird nonsense like power filtering and USB noise reducers. I've been to speaker and headphone meets, I've witnessed people take blind testing in proper environments even with speakers ranging from £100 to £10,000 + and literally nobody actually agreed on which was best. The only real thing came down to sound signature preferences, not raw audio quality. There's a reason that a lot of hardcore enthusiasts and even companies suggest against blind testing, literally anti-logic.

You can't argue which car goes from X to Y faster as it's an easily observable trait, you absolutely can argue what hi-fi setups might sound better or worse.

I did notice one trend however, it's almost always older men or wealthy people that view the differences. Our hearing decreases with age, and wealth tends to convince people they're getting more by spending more.
 
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Gray2233 said:
Cars are far more easily observable in performance metrics, audio is not and I'd argue it's a poor example.
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Can you give me a better example? And I'm not here to argue, I'm just passing on personal experience, which is all I have.
And why are cars more 'easily observable'? The petrolheads on here (and there's a bunch) would take exception to that, the nuances in how a car performs are identical to how a hifi system performs in terms of brain input and getting the 'feel' just right. It's all clever tech but its way behind what we can actually experience.
 
The truth is more expensive gear is normally better

A £6500 Yamaha A-S3200 integrated amp is better then a £300 Yamaha A-S201
A £4000 Technics 1200g is better then a £850 Technics SL-1200MK7
A £4200 Fyne Audio F1-5 is better then a £400 Fyne Audio F5e.
A £2300 pair of Adam Audio S2V's are better then a £300 pair of Adam Audio T5V's

That said you don't need expensive gear to have good audio and be happy, you could probably put a good sound system together for £1-2k.

It's very true the room acoustics makes a huge difference, but it does not change the fact more expensive gear is normally better. Synergy between gear is critical however.

Over the USB isolators, they are isolating ground loops not difficult to understand.


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turbot1984 said:
Can you give me a better example? And I'm not here to argue, I'm just passing on personal experience, which is all I have.
And why are cars more 'easily observable'? The petrolheads on here (and there's a bunch) would take exception to that, the nuances in how a car performs are identical to how a hifi system performs in terms of brain input and getting the 'feel' just right. It's all clever tech but its way behind what we can actually experience.
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I already did and prefaced the discussion by stating observable trends.

A cars performance is absolutely down to the preference of X or Y, but your argument begins with the idea audio equipment and cars are comparable on a base level. They are not, a car moves fast from A to B as mentioned, it's very easy to compare and relate.

You are arguing that cars are similar to audio, they are not in terms of raw performance. You picked the worst possible example, an expensive car does not make for a good drive anymore than an expensive speaker makes for good audio quality. You asked for a "better example" but the fact is you're the one needing to provide one, you have no argument. Fast vehicles are fast, shocker!

You can ALWAYS state that X car can do Y speed. You cannot do the same with audio equipment as you well know.
 
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turbot1984 said:
@Admetos why have we both got a 0% OCUK rating?
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For myself it's because I go outside the normal consensus's on things.

If I posted on here saying I run X number subwoofers, some Deli bookshelf's, £150 DAC or CD player, some amazon basic speaker cable and powered everything from a £6.99 white Argos mains extension I would fit in much better.
 
turbot1984 said:
I should have mentioned I've got £450 Atlas Hyper 3.5 speaker cable then ... would that get me to -20%? LOL
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I can go better than that :cry: , I've got 2 x 7 meter pair (14 meter pair) of Kimber 8TC at £260 per meter pair, £3600 plus factory termination costs :cry:. In fairness I purchased it pre-owned for much less, but even so, more important would never be without it :D
 
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Admetos said:
I can go better than that :cry: , I've got 2 x 7 meter pair (14 meter pair) of Kimber 8TC at £260 per meter pair, £3600 plus factory termination costs :cry:. In fairness I purchased it pre-owned for much less, but even so, more important would never be without it :D
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Nah, bell wire gets you a waaay better sound man ;-)
 
It can be a bit of a wormhole, problem was I worked in a hifi shop at Uni and got kinda bitten by the bug ... Cyrus monoblocks and Mission giant floorstanders, you know the score ;-)
 
turbot1984 said:
It can be a bit of a wormhole, problem was I worked in a hifi shop at Uni and got kinda bitten by the bug ... Cyrus monoblocks and Mission giant floorstanders, you know the score ;-)
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It's a rabbit hole :rolleyes: , you have get your audio to a place where your not thinking about the gear, then draw the line and enjoy the music :).
 
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