Expensive USB Cable To Connect PC To DAC

Nemiyen · 12 May 2020 at 12:36

Hey everyone, not wanting to start a rumble here but as this is a tech forum and not an audio one I figured I'd get answers more on my level.

OK. So does a USB cable affect the quality of the music we hear when connecting it digitally to a dac?

Currently I'm using a chord mojo with a cable that came with my phone so cheap and chearful. Now I've seen cables running to hundreds if not thousands so I'm wondering if I should upgrade my cable to say an Audioquest carbon or something similar?

Anyone here have experience of using a different cable improving sound quality? My IT brain says don't be an idiot but surely there wouldn't be a market for them if it didn't make a difference?

But then again I can watch flat earth videos on YouTube so then again....!

Edit: did a search but missed the snake oil thread about cables. But that seemed to focus on power cables so hope this is OK.

EsaT · 12 May 2020 at 13:29

Bits are bits and unless there are errors, signal remains the same.

Even with analog signal audio frequencies are such that there aren't special requirements.
https://gizmodo.com/audiophile-deathmatch-monster-cables-vs-a-coat-hanger-363154

Marsman · 12 May 2020 at 13:34

Nemiyen said:
OK. So does a USB cable affect the quality of the music we hear when connecting it digitally to a dac?

You'll always find a few people that will say yes, but the majority will say no there is no advantage to having a more expensive USB cable.

There are some people on these forums that do advocate more expensive fancy cables, but I think that is mainly in the area of cables that carry analogue signal and maybe power cables. Not sure I've seen anyone on these forums advocate fancy USB cables.

Digital cables are different. The general view is they either work, or they don't.

You can't improve sound quality with a better USB cable, if the cable being used can carry data with no loss. If there were any loss with a current cheap USB cable, then the result would not be lesser audio quality as you may get with analogue cable; it just wouldn't work properly.

Similar with HDMI cables; a so called better more expensive one won't improve picture quality. Either all data is received, or it isn't; and if it isn't, then it won't work properly.

Here's a link to a site where someone has tested both short and long USB cables; cheap against expensive:-

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/do-usb-audio-cables-make-a-difference.1887/

Nemiyen · 12 May 2020 at 14:05

Yeah that was my understanding as well with digital. It either works or it doesn't. I would definitely not believe it with picture quality but sound, I could maybe be convinced due to noise on the cable or issues causing the dac to interpret it and change the sound. Whether this is for the best or not is different!

If noise caused one pixel to be off slightly on a picture moving at 25 fps I'm most likely not going to see it, even though I know it won't change a thing.

Sound, I probably won't hear it either lol but wondered what people thought. I think it's going to be a case of it makes no difference to be honest!

Nemiyen · 12 May 2020 at 14:07

Then I started looking at things like this and I realise I'm starting to lose it!

https://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/333.html

dewi · 12 May 2020 at 14:38

How about:

https://petertyson.co.uk/audioquest-rj-e-diamond

Nemiyen · 12 May 2020 at 14:47

dewi said:
How about:

https://petertyson.co.uk/audioquest-rj-e-diamond

I'll have 10 of them!

Now that I call bs on because data transfer and everything being digital it makes no sense. If used for say Windows files etc.

But if that was going to something where it was converted to analogue, eg sound, then.... Maybe?

As data transfer has error checking then any issues are re sent and then saved but sending digital information with noise straight to a dac, does the dac mis understand the data?

Anything that's completely digital eg pictures on a TV, files being stored on a solid state drive or even a mechanical drive, I call bs on cable differences.

Anywhere where a digital cable goes to an analogue conversion then I still sort of think bs but could be convinced. Maybe...

dewi · 12 May 2020 at 14:55

I'm very, very cynical. I can just about see how a long digital cable could introduce jitter and how that could lead to an audible difference. Even then, you should be able to measure the effect of the jitter by doing a bit-comparison of the data received with the source data. Most of the time, digital connections either work or don't work. Compare, for example, FM radio with DAB. With FM radio, the signal/noise ratio decreases until it's hard to hear the radio signal above the background noise, whereas with DAB you have bit-perfect reproduction right up to the point that your DAB receiver goes silent. I'm very dubious of claims made by hi-fi magazines that a £60 digital cable has better bass and a clearer mid-range than a £25 (or even £5) digital cable. Was it a blind test? Were they able to measure the difference objectively, e.g. by doing a bit comparison? I'd accept that if someone could demonstrate to me with a blind test that there was an audible difference between two components, then it would be worthy of further investigation, but I'd still expect to find a difference that I could measure. Generally, I think these "improvements" are just in reviewers' heads. The fact they can hear the difference between two digital cables when there almost certainly isn't any difference makes me question their judgement when they compare two amplifiers or two speakers, when you would expect there to be a real difference.

dewi · 12 May 2020 at 15:01

Nemiyen said:
Anywhere where a digital cable goes to an analogue conversion then I still sort of think bs but could be convinced. Maybe...

That's exactly how I feel. Maybe, just maybe there's something going on in the digital to analogue conversion. Even so, I'm not convinced by some "expert" reviewer claiming to hear a difference between two cables. I'd want to hear the difference for myself and/or for him to back up his subjective opinion with some objective evidence.

Rroff · 12 May 2020 at 15:11

Much much bigger factors will be how good the power supply filtering is including any ground loop isolation, ground routing of the circuitry itself, etc. unless those are spot on changing the cable isn't going to make much odds and if they are then unless there is something seriously wrong with the cable it isn't going to make much odds either.

BananaDunka · 13 May 2020 at 00:43

There is no additional benefit to the sonics in normal UK high street USB cables.

BUT!

A cheap eBay/Amazon cable may not stand up to build quality of more expensive cables, so stuff like strain relief and the jack ends themselves may not stand the test of time whereas a quality cable will. Doesn't have to be an expensive one either, just decently priced. I bought a Belkin one for my DAC several years ago and it's still the same condition it was when new. It was around £15 if I remember right.

Check your PC BIOS/Mobo documentation too, many mobos now have dedicated USB DAC ports which function as normal USB ports but with filtered power circuitry designed to be used for DACs or gaming mice etc. My mobo has 2x ports right at the top (Z170X Gaming 5).

trentlad · 13 May 2020 at 02:53

EsaT said:
Bits are bits and unless there are errors, signal remains the same.

Even with analog signal audio frequencies are such that there aren't special requirements.

I used to think the same when it came to digital but it's not.

Take DisplayPort 1.2 vs 1.4 for example; both cables are designed the same way with no difference in physical structure between cables. The differences in the amount of bandwidth they can handle come from manufacturing tolerances! The only way to tell the difference is by the certification level, but DisplayPort 1.2 can transmit 21.6 Gbit/s (effectively 1440p @ 165Hz) and DisplayPort 1.4 can transmit 32.4 Gbit/s (4K @ 120Hz) which is 50% more throughput!

That's a great example of how a higher quality cable will actually make a difference to a digital signal.

BananaDunka · 13 May 2020 at 03:29

That's a video signal with encryption (HDCP etc) and a lot of bandwidth o manage. Audio signals don't require those specifications at all.

EsaT · 13 May 2020 at 09:44

trentlad said:
Take DisplayPort 1.2 vs 1.4 for example; both cables are designed the same way with no difference in physical structure between cables. The differences in the amount of bandwidth they can handle come from manufacturing tolerances!

That's a great example of how a higher quality cable will actually make a difference to a digital signal.

Next time try to argue without contradicting yourself:
DP 1.2 cable starts causing bit errors when trying to cram through more bits per second than cables of that standard were designed to do.
Nothing new in that.
While in cables for same standard there are no functional differences regardless of price!
Unlike claimed by audioscammers.

Yaayuh! · 13 May 2020 at 10:04

Just ensure that the cable is of good build quality for longevity. Other than that, enjoy your delivery of 1s and 0s in the correct order at the correct time, so to speak.

Nemiyen · 13 May 2020 at 14:10

mrk said:
Check your PC BIOS/Mobo documentation too, many mobos now have dedicated USB DAC ports which function as normal USB ports but with filtered power circuitry designed to be used for DACs or gaming mice etc. My mobo has 2x ports right at the top (Z170X Gaming 5).

That's a good idea for newer boards, never thought they would be doing that but makes sense. My board is an older x78 model so even though its a good one it doesn't have that feature unfortunately.

I figured the answers in this forum would sway towards the cable not mattering! Ask this in an audio forum and I think it would go the other way!!

Anyone recommend a good usb certified cable? I read the amazon basics are good but those were USA posts so the UK ones might not be aa well made.

dewi · 13 May 2020 at 14:37

How about £450 for an Ethernet switch? It does come with a free Ethernet cable worth £40.

https://www.whathifi.com/news/chord-companys-reborn-english-electric-launches-its-first-product

BananaDunka · 13 May 2020 at 17:39

Nemiyen said:
That's a good idea for newer boards, never thought they would be doing that but makes sense. My board is an older x78 model so even though its a good one it doesn't have that feature unfortunately.

I figured the answers in this forum would sway towards the cable not mattering! Ask this in an audio forum and I think it would go the other way!!

Anyone recommend a good usb certified cable? I read the amazon basics are good but those were USA posts so the UK ones might not be aa well made.

Amazon Basics are perfectly fine. Hell they were one of the first to fully support the pull-down resister in USB Type-C cables a couple of years back and their cables whilst looking very plain and boring, are certainly up to the task really.

trentlad · 14 May 2020 at 03:58

EsaT said:
Next time try to argue without contradicting yourself:
DP 1.2 cable starts causing bit errors when trying to cram through more bits per second than cables of that standard were designed to do.
Nothing new in that.
While in cables for same standard there are no functional differences regardless of price!
Unlike claimed by audioscammers.

It wasn't an argument, it's a statement of fact. A fact you literally re-iterated in your second line. Now who's contradicting themselves.

233 · 14 May 2020 at 04:13

£700 for a 3 foot bit of cat6 with some trinkets

thats all fine and well but what about the ports your plugging it into chances are their cheap built to a cost ports at one or both ends using mass produced controllers

what about the pcbs and circuits the data travels over inside the separate devices

anyway tangent

1s and 0s it works or it doesn’t anyone that tries to tell you otherwise usually has a vested interest in you spending silly money on overpriced pretty cable.

you won’t have a warmer sound or more vibrant picture or dirtier porn it’s not an analogue signal be it hdmi or Ethernet or USB

DIRECTIONALITY: All audio cables are directional. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. Arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For best results have the arrow pointing in the direction of the flow of music. For example, NAS to Router, Router to Network Player.

this is pure and utter nonsense designed to part people with their money

If you want some really good quality directional Ethernet cables send me £500 for every metre of cable you want (minimum order 4 metres) and I’ll pop round and terminate it personally in your home after performing an on site assessment to ensure maximum audio fidelity and peak directional flow for data. I’ll also for a small additional fee of £850 a metre professionally cleanse the cable of external impurities and perform a cm by cm analysis of any potential factors that made to a loss in aural quality