Explain DRM please.

orderoftheflame · 4 Jun 2011 at 19:03

Bloomfield said:
The purpose of DRM isn't to stop piracy, it's to delay it. A game being piratable before release is far far worse than a game that is only piratable after release.

Steam games arn't piratable before release are they? Due to unlocking required?

The purpose of some DRM in to prevent pre-day one piracy, some is to prevent any piracy. Steamworks is supposed to do both.

http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/publishingservices.php

Steamworks supports encryption to prevent day one piracy (which I'll concede works

), as well as CEG which is supposed to lock the files created for a game to a particular Steam account. This bit doesn't work, as you'll see in the days after a big release.

Bloomfield · 4 Jun 2011 at 19:45

orderoftheflame said:
The purpose of some DRM in to prevent pre-day one piracy, some is to prevent any piracy. Steamworks is supposed to do both.

http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/publishingservices.php

Steamworks supports encryption to prevent day one piracy (which I'll concede works ), as well as CEG which is supposed to lock the files created for a game to a particular Steam account. This bit doesn't work, as you'll see in the days after a big release.

CEG isn't supposed to stop piracy though, it's just supposed to stop you copying your copy of Portal 2 or whatever straight to your friends PC for them to play. It was never supposed to stop all piracy, hence why it says "making it difficult for any one user to share the game with any other user".

I honestly doubt any developer/publisher believes any form of DRM will stop piracy full stop, only delay it long enough so that people who are willing to buy games can buy it before being able to pirate it.

orderoftheflame · 4 Jun 2011 at 19:53

Bloomfield said:
CEG isn't supposed to stop piracy though, it's just supposed to stop you copying your copy of Portal 2 or whatever straight to your friends PC for them to play.

....Which would still be piracy. :confused:

How you distribute files makes no difference. It's to protect against wider distribution as well.

It says "making it difficult for any one user to share the game with any other user" because Valve are smart enough to know that claiming they can prevent it entirely would be asking for trouble.

I've never said that any DRM will stop piracy, or that any publisher believes they can stop it. I'm not even sure what you're trying to point out here?

Bloomfield · 4 Jun 2011 at 20:11

orderoftheflame said:
....Which would still be piracy. How you distribute files makes no difference. It's to protect against wider distribution as well.

Meh, should have said stop piracy completely, although that should have been fairly obvious.

I've never said that any DRM will stop piracy, or that any publisher believes they can stop it. I'm not even sure what you're trying to point out here?

You said Steamworks is supposed to stop any piracy, which isn't true, it's only supposed to make it more difficult to pirate, and delay the release of a cracked version of the game.

PhillyDee · 4 Jun 2011 at 20:13

You lot are really argueing over semantics here!

Bloomfield · 4 Jun 2011 at 20:14

PhillyDee said:
You lot are really argueing over semantics here!

.

orderoftheflame · 4 Jun 2011 at 20:26

Bloomfield said:
You said Steamworks is supposed to stop any piracy, which isn't true, it's only supposed to make it more difficult to pirate, and delay the release of a cracked version of the game.

This is just technicalities. :confused:

Surely the objective of any piracy is to make it harder to pirate under any circumstance. You think that when they sat down and designed it they said "Right, we'll stop the pre-day one-ers, stop people from just giving their mates a copy, but after that it's fair game", of course they set out with the intention of preventing as much piracy as they possibly could.

From your posts you seem I'm getting the feeling that you think I'm saying "Steamworks is an utter failure because people have been able to pirate Steamworks games", I'm not. I'm saying that I find it's record of preventing piracy is as good as many other systems, so it confuses me when people say "it's the only effective form of DRM".

I'm trying to agree with you in spirit. I've not said that Steamworks is a failure. To me any system that allows people to pirate the game, even the day it's released isn't entirely effective. I'm trying to say that I find Steamworks as infective as many other systems.

Hence why I question the "it's the only effective form of DRM" statement.

PhillyDee said:
You lot are really argueing over semantics here!

Pretty much.

Tute · 4 Jun 2011 at 20:29

orderoftheflame said:
I think you're missing my point. I'm not interested in how much the person using it cares how much it stops piracy.

I was trying to figure out why so many people think Steam is effective DRM when it fails to stop piracy. Regardless of whether you care or not; stopping piracy is the purpose of DRM, and a system that fails to do so cannot be effective.

Nothing stops piracy, so you don't really have a point, sorry.

orderoftheflame · 4 Jun 2011 at 20:32

Tute said:
Nothing stops piracy, so you don't really have a point, sorry.

....I'm pretty sure nothing stops piracy therefore all DRM is ineffective has been one of my points. :confused:

Thanks for actually taking the time to read.

Tute · 4 Jun 2011 at 20:45

I don't think you're reading at all. How can it be failing in your eyes when it can't do something which is impossible?

orderoftheflame · 4 Jun 2011 at 20:47

Tute said:
I don't think you're reading at all. How can it be failing in your eyes when it can't do something which is impossible?

Thanks for taking the time to read.

orderoftheflame said:
I've not said that Steamworks is a failure.

Bloomfield · 4 Jun 2011 at 20:48

orderoftheflame said:
This is just technicalities. Surely the objective of any piracy is to make it harder to pirate under any circumstance. You think that when they sat down and designed it they said "Right, we'll stop the pre-day one-ers, stop people from just giving their mates a copy, but after that it's fair game", of course they set out with the intention of preventing as much piracy as they possibly could.

From your posts you seem I'm getting the feeling that you think I'm saying "Steamworks is an utter failure because people have been able to pirate Steamworks games", I'm not. I'm saying that I find it's record of preventing piracy is as good as many other systems, so it confuses me when people say "it's the only effective form of DRM".

I'm trying to agree with you in spirit. I've not said that Steamworks is a failure. To me any system that allows people to pirate the game, even the day it's released isn't entirely effective. I'm trying to say that I find Steamworks as infective as many other systems. Hence why I question the "it's the only effective form of DRM" statement.

Pretty much.

People say that because effective DRM is DRM that does what it's supposed to to reduce/delay piracy and doesn't inconvenience the paying customer.

I'd guess that the people saying "It's the only effective form of DRM" find the others an inconvenience, and maybe even avoid buying games that use that DRM (which makes it less effective imo).

For DRM to be effective doesn't mean that it needs to stop piracy completely, that's not what it is intended to do.

Tute · 4 Jun 2011 at 20:53

orderoftheflame said:
Thanks for taking the time to read.

You're just not getting it are you?

DRM cannot cure piracy. There is always a way around it. All it can do is prevent the casuals from pirating games.

You seem to think that for DRM to be perfect it has to block 100% of attempts to pirate the game it's attached to. But how can it, when that's just not possible.

Steam has the top DRM implementation because it's unobtrusive, and simple. It doesn't punish honest buyers with stupid jumping through ridiculous hoops.

If there was an implmentation that even got close to preventing piracy totally, then you'd have a point, but you really don't.

Plus I don't think you're reading or understanding my posts either.

orderoftheflame · 4 Jun 2011 at 20:58

Tute said:
You're just not getting it are you?

DRM cannot cure piracy. There is always a way around it. All it can do is prevent the casuals from pirating games.

You seem to think that for DRM to be perfect it has to block 100% of attempts to pirate the game it's attached to. But how can it, when that's just not possible.

Surely the perfect form of DRM would be unobtrusive to users, and block 100% of piracy. It may not exist now, by why not strive for it?

Tute said:
Steam has the top DRM implementation because it's unobtrusive, and simple. It doesn't punish honest buyers with stupid jumping through ridiculous hoops.

And Steam is the only system that does it? Or the only one that is common place in the public eye?

Tute said:
If there was an implmentation that even got close to preventing piracy totally, then you'd have a point, but you really don't.

Plus I don't think you're reading or understanding my posts either.

Because I'm not really interested in them any more.

Tute · 4 Jun 2011 at 21:03

orderoftheflame said:
Surely the perfect form of DRM would be unobtrusive to users, and block 100% of piracy. It may not exist now, by why not strive for it?

I expect people do strive for it. But it's not obtainable. So where do we draw the line - is all DRM crap as a result?

And Steam is the only system that does it? Or the only one that is common place in the public eye?

I don't know - I mainly use Steam. The reason I see it as the top implementation is that the DRM comes as part of a package that has a good interface, great deals, etc.

Because I'm not really interested in them any more.

It shows, given how much drivel you posted.

orderoftheflame · 4 Jun 2011 at 21:11

Tute said:
I expect people do strive for it. But it's not obtainable. So where do we draw the line - is all DRM crap as a result?

It's unobtainable in your eyes, but clearly developers and publishers have yet to give up on finding a method that works. It may end up being a cat and mouse chase lasting to the end of time, but they're trying at least.

Some clearly go astray and end up creating monstrosities, I tend to avoid those.

Tute said:
I don't know - I mainly use Steam. The reason I see it as the top implementation is that the DRM comes as part of a package that has a good interface, great deals, etc.

So although there are plenty of implementations with similar results that are entirely invisible to the customer, Steam is better because it has a good interface. :confused:

Tute said:
It shows, given how much drivel you posted.

Aww. Want a cookie?

Tute · 4 Jun 2011 at 21:14

I give up. Clearly you have issues as i've just read more of your pointless drivel in the DNF thread?

Get out of bed the wrong side?

Anyhow, think what you like. I'm not going to bother with this anymore as you're just not reading what i'm saying, so i'm wasting energy typing it.