Extension Budget Planning - am I being unrealistic

the_r_sole said:
Again, just to be clear - you are not doing this in the most cost effective way, so don't expect the most cost effective prices to be returned, I can't really say it again, or add any more. Any budget is achievable but you need to understand how to achieve that and what compromises may be required - approaching a single company to provide a turn key solution is always going to be the most expensive way to procure a building.
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This is what it comes back to.

I built an extension a couple of years ago (35m^2) and it cost nothing like £1000/metre, more like £600 for the watertight shell. However, i did the drawings myself, dealt with BC and planning myself, the ground clearance myself, project managed and procured all materials myself, hired VAT free tradesmen independently, etc.
 
the_r_sole said:
Again, just to be clear - you are not doing this in the most cost effective way, so don't expect the most cost effective prices to be returned, I can't really say it again, or add any more. Any budget is achievable but you need to understand how to achieve that and what compromises may be required - approaching a single company to provide a turn key solution is always going to be the most expensive way to procure a building.
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This seems to be the most informative comment you have made (not having a dig, I have found everything you have said to be useful but this stands out to me).

For what its worth, I have to this point only engaged with one firm. I didn't say that this was the only route I was going down and that was that. We engaged with a firm to try to get to know the process, what was involved, and what was a realistic price point. My concern was about the fact that this first quote completely destroyed the budget and should I even bother looking further or not pursue at all.

I am not delusional and never expected it to be cheap, but I will draw the line when I don't think something is achievable in reach. As the £90k budget is close to the top end of what I would want to pay out for the work based on what we would get for the money and how much longer we would have to be paying off the mortgage for if I and trying to gauge if I am being realistic in being able to get even close to that or if I should not bother.

Seems I need to talk to some more people.
 
We are a couple of months into our extension but when we were starting out we:

1. Hired an architect who worked with us on the design and initial drawings
2. The Architect then recommended the engineering firm to draft up the technical plans
3. The Architect then submitted the drawings for planning.
4. Once we had planning we went to tender, the Architect drew up a tender document and spreadsheet, we got 7 building firms to quote, only 5 of them came back with quotes, one was madly more expensive than the others, the others were within a 10-15K of each other.
5. We met with each builder on site and went over everything with them, their quotes, the way they work, the schedule we wanted etc.
6. We went around to see other work they had done, and knocked on doors and asked the people how it went with the builders, any problems, would they reccomend them etc.
7. We ended up choosing not the cheapest, but the one who:
a) Had the most recomendations and the architect had worked with before
b) We "clicked" with and who got what we were trying to achieve
c) Wasn't the sort of company that had too many jobs on at the same time

Funnily he wasn't that keen before meeting us, the site we have is not easy to access, and is semi-detached which can cause a lot of headaches, but after meeting on site a couple of times we clicked and so far its been going really well.

The spreadsheed the Architect drew up for the tender was very detailed, and had provisional (if not a little unrealistic) sums for many things such as kitchen, bathroom, flooring etc. But its been really helpful now we have started for our budget and agreeing any changes.

Hope this helps and good luck, don't give up you can get what you want, just keep some contingency and work within your means for your budget.
 
When I priced up for the "shell" (which was everything excluding plastering, painting, electrics and plumbing) it only knocked off around 2k for me.

The big saver is the vat I guess, but you're going to be hard pressed to find a decent builder who doesn't hit the turnover threshold for vat.
 
We finally got planning permission last week, and started to chase up builders. The first two we tried aren't taking on any work until next year, and the next scoffed at our £150k budget. I get the feeling we're just going to be ripped off whatever we end up with.
 
Plans are being weighed up currently as to whether its worth it at all or not now. The way it all ties in to how live can shape out is being considered.

Getting £90k-£100k extra borrowing will change the focus of life goals such as mortgage free by mid 40's. Potential future property investment as well.

While the extension idea is fantastic, the proposed use of the space is not forever. Mainly it would be used by my wife and her mother and sister for child-minding. The mother will likely retire in the next 5-7 years (meaning time of use would only be 3-5 years), while my wife is already in a position where she continue child minding from home. The only long term user would be the sister and she may not stick it out in the long run.

While the extension space would also include a gym and a bathroom which would be used indefinitely by myself. However all things considered after the child-minding stops the space becomes almost unused. Yes if we were to ever sell the space becomes a granny annex, turning a 3 bed in to a 4 bed yet we only have 1 child (age 9) and no plans for any more.

So all things considered, the thought of getting plans drawn up just to potentially get more realistic quotes is not appealing at this point.
 
I feel your pain. We're in the process of desperately deciding what to do. Our original plans are being quoted way over what they realistically should be, so if we can't find a builder to that budget, then we can't find a builder.

So do we pay to have revisions done to the plans? It's really disheartening and I'm not sure I can be bothered, though realistically now the goal I suppose is to add enough value to the house with as little budget as possible and sell it, so for us I guess the only thing we will actually do is the loft conversion, as adding two bedrooms will do a lot more to the value than the rest of the work we had planned. It was just work we wanted to make it a house we wanted to live in.
 
You could go into as i did with ours (nothing too major, a 500sqft (~46m^2) single storey extension with pitched roof to create a large open plan kitchen diner). It depends how involved you wish to get, and how much time you can dedicate to it.

I broke the job down into distinct separate projects.
  • Planning & Building control - all self managed. Building notice given as opposed to full plans.
  • Thames Water buildover agreements and other paperwork like that - self managed with relevant companies.
  • Grounds work - met with building control officer to agree scope of passable foundation depth without ground survey (so, worst case). Contacted grounds working companies/mini digger hire+driver adverts - ended up using a builder to quote and complete for digging out, and pouring of slab and foundations only, plus one row of blocks to create base for walls. Then had this signed off with building control.
  • Walls. Quantity surveyed myself and had a supply of local stone on tap available from local quarry. Contacted bricklayers, builders, used a builder to bricklay inner leaf in themalite and exterior leaf in local stone, and to fit insulation as they progressed. Thermalite blocks and insulation from Wickes in the end.
  • Roof structure. Contacted carpenters, builders, etc. Used the same builder as the walls in the end as he said he could carry on. Agreed a cash price for this stage and met with building control as to the acceptable size of beams for the 5.5m span etc. Ordered all of the materials as per meeting from local wood yard and hardware from local builders merchants/screwfix.
  • Roof tiling and dressing to existing house. Actually used the same builder again, but also ran quotes with local roofing companies as this is just a tiling job at this stage. Sourced tiles as per building control meeting and planning from roofingsuperstore.co.uk. Agreed cash price for tiling and dressing the roof.
  • Windows and doors - self measured and ordered these from a firm all the way up north in the end after getting many quotes. They were delivered self assembled in the main, and then fitted them using help of friends. They just lift into place as per youtube guides, pretty easy. Again building control back to sign off.
  • Guttering, exterior lights, wiring, etc - screwfix sourced and just fitted all of these finishes as and when time allowed.
  • Interior including floor insulation, floating floor, ceiling insulation, and interior decorating. I did all of this DIY with some family and friends help. Building control consulted at each stage as to acceptable insulation depths, and materials, etc. If in doubt with anything - get building control round and consult with them - your fee pays for as many visits as you would like.
  • Plastering - used a local plasterer, had many quotes. Didnt want to attempt DIY on that.
  • Then when all finished, got a final sign off.
Total cost in (expensive) local cotswold stone was around £600/metre^2 fully finished in the end. The shell was more like £500/metre^2. Bricks would have knocked a few thousands off this, the local stone here is extremely expensive.
 
platypus said:
I feel your pain. We're in the process of desperately deciding what to do. Our original plans are being quoted way over what they realistically should be, so if we can't find a builder to that budget, then we can't find a builder.

So do we pay to have revisions done to the plans? It's really disheartening and I'm not sure I can be bothered, though realistically now the goal I suppose is to add enough value to the house with as little budget as possible and sell it, so for us I guess the only thing we will actually do is the loft conversion, as adding two bedrooms will do a lot more to the value than the rest of the work we had planned. It was just work we wanted to make it a house we wanted to live in.
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Did you use an architect to do the plans and what level of detail is in them?
We generally advise clients that the market can vary hugely depending on when you tender a job and who too - so it's likely that you will have to make cost savings after tender returns have been received.
(although we still get clients complaining about high tender returns even when we've told them it will be high!)
 
the_r_sole said:
Did you use an architect to do the plans and what level of detail is in them?
We generally advise clients that the market can vary hugely depending on when you tender a job and who too - so it's likely that you will have to make cost savings after tender returns have been received.
(although we still get clients complaining about high tender returns even when we've told them it will be high!)
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Yes to an architect, and just enough detail to get planning permission. Elevations, scales, but nothing structural.
 
We* are generally seeing around £1500sq/m for very basic and around £2,000sq/m for higher end. I just finished a small extension on the front of our house (rendered, parapet flat roof) and it came in around £1600sq/m (22sq/m) but I project managed it and did quite a bit of the internal work myself.

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Obviously getting the plans and technical drawings sorted didn't cost me anything either so my my end figure is slightly skewed.

If i was doing you a full service fee quote I would be suggesting a build cost budget or around £120K.

There's an ongoing skill shortage along with rising material costs and its getting more expensive almost quarterly. I know builders now that are booked out for 18 months +, its a bit of a state to be honest.

*Owns an architectural practice in Nottingham.
 
platypus said:
Yes to an architect, and just enough detail to get planning permission. Elevations, scales, but nothing structural.
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ahh right, so you're leaving a hell of a lot to builders to make assumptions on construction/finish wise - they will (should) have build a lot of contingency/provisional sums into pricing planning drawings
 
Builders can sniff out trouble makers from a mile off.

Know-it-all's
People who want millionaire opulence on a paupers budget
I want this, but I don't want it now, can you quote anyway
I have a time frame of X, with X being completely unreasonable
 
We have had three dustantisl pieces of work done on our house all were more expensive than we hoped but because we thought things through and have always treated our house as a home not an investment we are delighted with the outcome!
 
the_r_sole said:
ahh right, so you're leaving a hell of a lot to builders to make assumptions on construction/finish wise - they will (should) have build a lot of contingency/provisional sums into pricing planning drawings
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Lets be honest, they are protecting enormous profit margins and little else. The cost of building is not massive, materials are reasonably priced.

Unfortunately building appears to be a total racket in the UK, our high property values are probably primarily to blame as it throws things out of perspective. The enormous margins expected by building firms are why i was forced to go the route which i detailed above. Sure enough, when broken down, it came in at the amounts which i quoted above (Basic shell at around £500/m^2 in local stone which was a lot more expensive than brick/block).
 
the_r_sole said:
ahh right, so you're leaving a hell of a lot to builders to make assumptions on construction/finish wise - they will (should) have build a lot of contingency/provisional sums into pricing planning drawings
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Well that may be the case, but we've asked for ball park figures so that we can then get the structural drawings done. We don't really see the point in getting all the drawings done to then still be over budget on the build.

I think it's more a case that there's so much work here they can essentially rip people off with whatever figures they like. Some desperate enough will go for the vastly inflated quotes because there's little other option.

Any builder worth the money should know from looking whether a plan needs steel or not for example, and be able to quote both based on requiring steel or not.
 
Jez said:
Lets be honest, they are protecting enormous profit margins and little else. The cost of building is not massive, materials are reasonably priced.

Unfortunately building appears to be a total racket in the UK, our high property values are probably primarily to blame as it throws things out of perspective. The enormous margins expected by building firms are why i was forced to go the route which i detailed above. Sure enough, when broken down, it came in at the amounts which i quoted above (Basic shell at around £500/m^2 in local stone which was a lot more expensive than brick/block).
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Yeah, but you have only given them really basic information, they have to assume everything, obviously they are protecting themselves - they're not building your house for a favour or for themselves, how many lawyers charge you for just the paper they write their letters on?!
Material costs are increasing all the time as are building regs, and you're not accounting for any prelim costs with the increased requirements from the latest CDM revisions - contractors profit usually somewhere around 10% on a small job iirc

If you give out full specifications of the building, then you'll get realistic, detailed costs - showing a planning drawing is just asking for a finger in the air. No doubt you would be unhappy if they told you a really low figure and then increased it by 25% once they have the construction details, drainage/foundation drawings etc
 
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