External DAC Recommendation

Audiophile is another word for mug, to be blunt about it. There's a difference in actually the best sound, and the best sound they think they can get.

Amps make little difference to sound, it's all in the speakers.

Only a mug should be considering spending £500+ on a DAC, never mind £5000.

Next you'll be telling us about the wonders magic speaker cables do for sound quality.

I see your point. However, DACs do make a very noticeable difference to sound. I noticed a difference going from intergrated audio to a 12 year old sound card. Being a mug would be spending £200+ on a nice pair of headphones and using on-board audio. Now THAT would make you a right mug. The worrying thing is that lots and lots of people do this.
 
Because the things you're saying about DACs are of the same vein as the things people say about speaker cables. There isn't actually any legitimate reason for why more expensive DACs = better sound due to the expense aspect.

I guarantee you would be able to tell the difference between a £500 and £5000 DAC. There are no numbers to back this up because sound quality isn't based on numbers.
 
I see your point. However, DACs do make a very noticeable difference to sound. I noticed a difference going from intergrated audio to a 12 year old sound card. Being a mug would be spending £200+ on a nice pair of headphones and using on-board audio. Now THAT would make you a right mug. The worrying thing is that lots and lots of people do this.

The problem is that you're not accounting for the fact that audible differences don't actually mean there actual differences. The same reasons why people hear differences between cables.

I guarantee you would be able to tell the difference between a £500 and £5000 DAC. There are no numbers to back this up because sound quality isn't based on numbers.

How can you guarantee that? I know sound quality isn't based on numbers, but the price of audio equipment very rarely indicates quality unless you're comparing ultra bottom end crappy stuff that degrades the audio due to how poorly made it is, to stuff that is made properly.
 
I'll rephrase my point, just because you think you can hear a difference, doesn't mean that there actually IS a difference.

As I said about speaker cables, people think they hear a difference, that doesn't mean there actually is a difference that's being made.
 
Pick yourself up the cheapest creative sound card you can find, get some mediocre headphones, switch between on board audio and the sound card playing some good quality music files at a decent volume and then come back to me.
 
That's not because of the sound card, it's because the volume levels on DACs is often higher, which is something people often confuse as being better sound quality.

However, I don't understand how that has anything to do with your claims that there are huge quality differences between a £500 DAC and a £5000 DAC.
 
I'll rephrase my point, just because you think you can hear a difference, doesn't mean that there actually IS a difference.

As I said about speaker cables, people think they hear a difference, that doesn't mean there actually is a difference that's being made.

I am 100% sure I can hear a difference in the quality of my music. None of the frequencies top out at high volumes, the mids are much less messy and the bass is a tiny bit less muddy/distorted and more punchy.
I tried switching between the two inputs and I bet you £10 I could do a blind test if both were turned up fairly high.
Again, please do the test yourself (preferably blind as I assume your judgement may be somewhat clouded) and come back to me.
 
That's not because of the sound card, it's because the volume levels on DACs is often higher, which is something people often confuse as being better sound quality.

However, I don't understand how that has anything to do with your claims that there are huge quality differences between a £500 DAC and a £5000 DAC.

At no point did I ever say that there would be a 'huge' difference between a £500 and a £5000 DAC. I simply implied that there would be a noticeable difference in quality. This is because you implied that there would be no difference.
 
That's not because of the sound card, it's because the volume levels on DACs is often higher, which is something people often confuse as being better sound quality.

However, I don't understand how that has anything to do with your claims that there are huge quality differences between a £500 DAC and a £5000 DAC.

'it's because the volume levels on DACs is often higher', I'm beginning to get the suspicion that you don't really know what you're on about...?
 
Again, what does that have to do with £500 versus £5000 DACs?

Cheapo soundcards CAN distort and mess up sound, but that has nothing to do with silly priced stuff as you are effectively saying correlation = causation.

Also, we haven't even covered "differences" properly, some of the silly expensive cabling is designed specifically to degrade sound quality so as to be able to state there is a "difference".

However we are talking about properly constructed equipment, which doesn't have a cost associated with it.
 
At no point did I ever say that there would be a 'huge' difference between a £500 and a £5000 DAC. I simply implied that there would be a noticeable difference in quality. This is because you implied that there would be no difference.

You are saying that there will be a difference in quality due to the price.

'it's because the volume levels on DACs is often higher', I'm beginning to get the suspicion that you don't really know what you're on about...?

I do know what I'm talking about, you are unfortunately a victim of audiophile myths and hype. As I've said, people often confuse loudness with the quality of audio.

It's a common tactic to use to try to suggest that one source of audio is higher quality than another by marketing departments of the companies that make audio equipment.
 
Again, what does that have to do with £500 versus £5000 DACs?

Cheapo soundcards CAN distort and mess up sound, but that has nothing to do with silly priced stuff as you are effectively saying correlation = causation.

Also, we haven't even covered "differences" properly, some of the silly expensive cabling is designed specifically to degrade sound quality so as to be able to state there is a "difference".

However we are talking about properly constructed equipment, which doesn't have a cost associated with it.

Please stop bringing up cabling. I know that cables do not matter. I saw the article about the 'audiophiles' not being able to tell the difference between music played over expensive cables vs unbent coat-hangers.
DACs are a different matter. The law of diminishing returns does hit very hard with them as there won't be a massive difference in sound quality between a £500 vs a £1000 DAC and you will need a very flash pair of headphones or a serious Hi-Fi system to notice it. Despite this, my point still stands, if you were to pair the DAC with the appropriate output device.
An analogy of this: Let's imagine that headphones are monitors and DACs/soundcards are GPUs (I don't know how good your knowledge is on this topic but it's the best I can do) if you buy a TFT, 50Hz, 1440x900 monitor, you will notice a difference between an ATI 7770 and a GTX 780ti. If you buy a 120Hz, 2560x1440 monitor with 10 bit colour and beautiful saturation, contrast etc, you will notice a bit of a difference between 2xGTX770s and 3x780ti (also a massive difference between those and an HD 7770. You get my jist?
 
You are saying that there will be a difference in quality due to the price.



I do know what I'm talking about, you are unfortunately a victim of audiophile myths and hype. As I've said, people often confuse loudness with the quality of audio.

It's a common tactic to use to try to suggest that one source of audio is higher quality than another by marketing departments of the companies that make audio equipment.

Ok, here's my logic: a £500 DAC will be used for audiophile usage: pleasing bass, warmer sound etc. a £5000 DAC will be used for commercial purposes: audio production, monitoring etc. The £5000 DAC will need to produce the best and most accurate, high quality audio signal possible. The difference will probably be almost un-detectable to the average Joe. I highly doubt that music producers are influenced by the audiophile myths.
Just FYI, I listen to my music loud because I have to to get anything out of my dullcandys. I also EQ my music, one of the things that made the difference between the intergrated and dedicated audio chips apparent.
 
Also, I forgot to mention that, I really don't believe that a£500, let alone a £5000 DAC is worth the RRP. I know that both are pretty shocking rip offs and I completely understand that the manufacture costs will be waaaay less than the RRPs. I'm still sticking to my point, though, that a £5000 DAC will sound noticeably better than £500 DAC, (along with having many more features and capabilities of course).
 
Please stop bringing up cabling. I know that cables do not matter. I saw the article about the 'audiophiles' not being able to tell the difference between music played over expensive cables vs unbent coat-hangers.
DACs are a different matter. The law of diminishing returns does hit very hard with them as there won't be a massive difference in sound quality between a £500 vs a £1000 DAC and you will need a very flash pair of headphones or a serious Hi-Fi system to notice it. Despite this, my point still stands, if you were to pair the DAC with the appropriate output device.
An analogy of this: Let's imagine that headphones are monitors and DACs/soundcards are GPUs (I don't know how good your knowledge is on this topic but it's the best I can do) if you buy a TFT, 50Hz, 1440x900 monitor, you will notice a difference between an ATI 7770 and a GTX 780ti. If you buy a 120Hz, 2560x1440 monitor with 10 bit colour and beautiful saturation, contrast etc, you will notice a bit of a difference between 2xGTX770s and 3x780ti (also a massive difference between those and an HD 7770. You get my jist?

The graphics card wouldn't result in better image quality though, it would be better performance. Screen shots would look the same, only in fluid movement would there be a difference, but it wouldn't be image quality where there's a difference.

It's a poor example because it doesn't relate to sound. Audio simply doesn't work in the way you think it does, the most important aspect of a sound system will be the speakers.

Ok, here's my logic: a £500 DAC will be used for audiophile usage: pleasing bass, warmer sound etc. a £5000 DAC will be used for commercial purposes: audio production, monitoring etc. The £5000 DAC will need to produce the best and most accurate, high quality audio signal possible. The difference will probably be almost un-detectable to the average Joe. I highly doubt that music producers are influenced by the audiophile myths.
Just FYI, I listen to my music loud because I have to to get anything out of my dullcandys. I also EQ my music, one of the things that made the difference between the intergrated and dedicated audio chips apparent.


As long as the amp you're using has enough power output to sufficiently power the speakers you have connected, and the amp isn't processing the sound to colour it, you will not hear a difference between two different amps, the "quality" will be the same.

It's simply how it works.

Audiophiles are typically not to be trusted (those who identify as such) because they are going to be likely caught up in the audio myth nonsense.

Producers are more interested in the speakers/studio monitors than a silly expensive DAC that doesn't actually produce better quality sound. They don't want equipment to colour the sound, that's exactly what they don't need. You seem to be confusing "sounds better" with "sound quality" when they are two different matters, for example you seem to think more bass = better quality, when it just means it's more preferable to you to have more bass.

Also, I forgot to mention that, I really don't believe that a£500, let alone a £5000 DAC is worth the RRP. I know that both are pretty shocking rip offs and I completely understand that the manufacture costs will be waaaay less than the RRPs. I'm still sticking to my point, though, that a £5000 DAC will sound noticeably better than £500 DAC, (along with having many more features and capabilities of course).

A £5000 DAC simply won't sound "better", it might sound "different" due to audio processing being used to colour the sound (think valve amps and the warm distortion that add to music, that is a preference, not an increase in quality). As I've said, a preference isn't the same as an increase in quality.

As for features and capabilities, a DAC should just be used to transport audio from your PC to your speakers/headphones with a volume dial. Features that are added aren't being done to aid quality of the sound.

I know exactly what you're saying, I'm pointing out that you're simply mistaking having a preference for how something sounds means that it's better quality, it's no different to saying increasing the saturation on a display means the image quality has gone up, which isn't how it works.
 
And by features, I was just referring to stuff that would make it suitable for professional application.
As for the saturation analogy, I meant that colours don't 'pop' on cheaper monitors like mine where everything just looks a bit uninspiring and the contrast ratio makes blacks looms grey when you compare it to more expensive TVs/ monitors.
 
Ok, ok, I give up, just tell me what your audio set up is like because I'm intruiged to know.

This is irrelevant, the possession or lack of certain items does not preclude someone from having knowledge about a subject.

And by features, I was just referring to stuff that would make it suitable for professional application.

Like what?


As for the saturation analogy, I meant that colours don't 'pop' on cheaper monitors like mine where everything just looks a bit uninspiring and the contrast ratio makes blacks looms grey when you compare it to more expensive TVs/ monitors.

Again, your issue is thinking that expense determines quality, it's simply not the case.

Lower quality stuff IS cheaper, but it's a correlation = causation issue there.

What you're actually referring to is for example a TN panel versus an IPS panel, where IPS panels are better in terms of image quality. There are plenty of IPS monitors that give better image quality than more expensive TN monitors.

I have 3x 2560x1440 monitors that cost me just over £500, all brand new, they are all IPS and they use the same panels found in the Dell 27" monitors as well as Apple's 27" iMacs and Cinema Displays, which means the image quality will be the same despite my specific screens having cost less for all 3 than a single one of Dell's or Apple's displays.

My point is that what determines quality is the parts that are used, not the expense of something, and that you shouldn't judge or assume something to be of a higher quality just because of the price tag.

I understand WHY you do it, because products are marketed that way, but in truth it's largely not the case, which is why when for example you look at some AV receivers, the more expensive ones have more features to distinguish themselves from the lower priced ones, because there isn't actually an audio quality difference, so they have to give people a reason to feel compelled to spend that little bit more.

As I said above, modern amps that have sufficient enough power output to power the speakers that are connected, will sound the same at the same volume. If you have speakers where the amp doesn't have enough power to drive the speakers properly, then a more expensive (as per above, they limit power output in cheaper amps) amp will sound better as it's able to adequately drive the connected speakers.


However this isn't something that is particularly common unless you're comparing an amp that's designed to power bundled tiny satellite speakers (like those BD/DVD player 5.1 surround sets you can buy) to a proper AV receiver that is designed to power and handle large floor standing speakers. However, both amps with the tiny satellite speakers, at the same volumes, would sound the same. Ergo, it's all about power output and speakers than DACs, amp "quality" and price.

This is the sort of stuff they cover in the Tek Syndicate video I linked.
 
You make it sound like I think that the more expensive something is, the better it will be. While I think I believe this more than you, I'm gonna say that it's not true. This is the very reason that I've vowed to avoid corsair/Asus unless they get their act together.
As for your audio setup, dude, I'm using a 12 year old, AC97 sound card and a pair of skullcandys, unless you're using 2 cups and a piece of string, I can't be the one to judge your audio setup.
 
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