F1 - Indycar safety.

[Housey]

For most of my life (that I remember) people have talked about canopy's on F1 cars and still we don't have them. I remember a book in the early 70's I had which had the future F1 car in it, with covered wheels and a cockpit....

 

[helpimcrap]

No it doesn't, and anyone who has this mentality is messed up. I have no desire to watch something just because someone might die.

but would you get the same excitement watching cars limited to 20mph or 30bhp for example? no you wouldn't so my point stands......

if you limited the cars like that you would see driver skill above all else and the advances in chassis would be so minor but so immense.

 

[Housey]

For all the people saying the Indycar chassis from 2003 is as safe as a current F1 car I may suggest that this is far from the truth. The amount of money, R&D that has gone into protecting drivers in F1 is massive and it shows in crashes like Webber's & Kubica's.

As you said you are not that up to speed with US racing, I think this view of budget equating effectiveness in this circumstance is simplistic. You'll appreciate that most of the bad incidents in F1 have come through sudden and massive deceleration or head contacting with something solid, or something solid contacting with the head. The monococques of both F1 and Indycar are both equally strong, both go through massive crash testing and both have shown rigidity over many years, but then this isn't the issue. F1 has seen work around side impact and wheel tethers and also research into how the impacts can be reduced on the driver, but then so has Indycar, look up the work undertaking by their cash testing people.

The reality is most of the deaths in Indycar have been at speeds or on tracks that F1 would not visit. Ovals by far and way the biggest issue due to reasons outlined above. Ricardo Rodriguez died and Languna after his car leapt over a wall with no catch fence and landed on his head, an accident I would struggle to see happen on a modern F1 circuit. Campos however in F3000 died when his head made contact with wall, terrible, but no safety differences in the cars would have saved that happening, it was just a bad one where the angle made his head the first point of contact, something that could happen in any open wheel car, just like Henry Surtees and I suggest just like Dan Wheldon, sadly. I would not argue that F1 is leading the way in safety, but a 2003 chassis has still evolved it's safety and whilst I agree it could improve, for it always can, it doubt an F1 car in Wheldon's accident would have offered more chance of him walking away.

As you correctly highlighted sometimes circumstance means that all the safety in the world can do nothing, Senna being a case in point, it was just unlucky that a suspension part went through his helmet. Look at the bad ones in F1 recently, they have been indy reminiscent in that they have involved side impact or massive deceleration, but then there have been hundreds of those in Indy as well where the drivers has unbuckled and got out and those have typically been at much greater speeds. Sometimes, all the safety in the world won't make you safe, as I would expect you to understand better than most.

I've been to 100's or races too, F1 down and I've seen people walk away from accidents I expected them to be killed in and others be stretchered off when they, to me, seemed to stub their toe.

 

[Housey]

..also take a look at the crashes involving Kenny Brack, Catherine Legge and Mike Conway to see accidents just as bad and worse than Kubica in Canada where the drivers survived, though Brack was badly hurt, but then he hit 214g's of deceleration and Mike Conway looked just as bad as Dan Wheldon....but then he was lucky with just a broken leg. Catherine Legges at Road America was like an airplane crash.

 

[Weebull]

Webber landed upside down.

So he did, my apologies.

It never ceases to amaze me that, even when the contributor is so involved that he could even have been part of the situations being described, some armchair experts still have the stupidity to question them.

I do hope you appreciate the irony of saying this after JRS has shot you down for your ill-informed and sweeping statement about IndyCar safety.

Sorry, sr4470, but I'm going to take the Motorsport Dr's opinion on Motorsport Medical care above yours.

The same doctor who's admitted his knowledge of US racing is poor and doesn't know anything about the incident other than what's in here?

I think sr4470 has every right to say it looked like the response was pretty quick to him.

 

[Type_R]

So he did, my apologies.


I do hope you appreciate the irony of saying this after JRS has shot you down for your ill-informed and sweeping statement about IndyCar safety.


The same doctor who's admitted his knowledge of US racing is poor and doesn't know anything about the incident other than what's in here?

I think sr4470 has every right to say it looked like the response was pretty quick to him.

Yes I have never marshalled at a US event, I guess that makes me just as informed as sr4470. However from the outside, certainly does look like an amateur run sport when compared to an F1 event. Our race control consists of more than just one man on his headset!

I did go away and look at many Indycar accidents (on Youtube) and was pleasantly surprised by the lack of injuries suffered by drivers despite the ridiculously close concrete barriers and speeds involved.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

If closed cockpits do happen, it might not be too bad -

http://www.iacoski.com/fx-i1_closed_cockpit_concept/

On another note, those are some mad skills!

 

[saddler]

Whether it would have made any difference or not the article linked below imples that the 2011 spec F1 car is 40% stronger in roll hoop impacts than the 2011 Indycar.

New Indycar article

I'd be interested to know what loading an F1 roll hoop is designed to take, ie could any current car survive a roof on impact at 220+ mph into a concrete wall?

 

[DBT85]

Whether it would have made any difference or not the article linked below imples that the 2011 spec F1 car is 40% stronger in roll hoop impacts than the 2011 Indycar.

New Indycar article

I'd be interested to know what loading an F1 roll hoop is designed to take, ie could any current car survive a roof on impact at 220+ mph into a concrete wall?

A 40% increase is substantial and it just makes me need to know that at least was introduced earlier.

I found this article on Formula1.com which while not answering anything, is at least an interesting read.

Like road cars, Formula One cars must undergo crash tests before being passed fit for use. Introduced in 1985 and supervised by the FIA, these stringent evaluations are usually carried out at the Cranfield Impact Centre in Bedfordshire, England and comprise dynamic (moving) crash tests, static load tests and rollover tests.

The dynamic impact tests are performed on the front, sides, and rear of the chassis, plus the steering column. The driver’s survival cell must remain undamaged throughout. The weight of the test chassis, including a crash dummy, is 780 kg. The front impact test is done at a speed of 15 metres per second (54 km/h, 33 mph), the lateral at 10 m/s (36 km/h, 22 mph) and the rear at 11 m/s (39.6 km/h, 25 mph).

The speeds may seem low, but are chosen to allow the most accurate measurement of the car's ability to safely absorb the unwanted momentum of an accident. The limits for maximum deceleration, energy absorption and deformation are precisely defined. For example, during the frontal test the deceleration measured on the chest of the dummy may not exceed 60G (approximately 60 times body weight) within three milliseconds of the impact.

The steering column test is designed to ensure the column will collapse safely in the unlikely event of the driver’s head impacting the steering wheel. The column is fixed to the ground and an 8kg object is projected into the centre of the wheel at a speed of 7 m/s (25 km/h, 16 mph). All substantial deformation must be within the steering column; deceleration must not exceed 80 g for more than three milliseconds; and the wheel’s quick release mechanism must function normally after the test.

In addition to the five dynamic tests, a further 13 static load tests are carried out on the chassis’ front, side and rear structures to ensure they can withstand the levels of collateral pressure required by the regulations. These tests include applying pressure to the floor below the fuel tank, to the side of the nose mount, and to the chassis’ sides at leg and seat levels. The surfaces in question may only deflect or deform within specified limits and there must be no damage to the impact structure, the survival cell or the gearbox.

The car’s rollover structure is tested in three directions - laterally with five tonnes, longitudinally with six tonnes and vertically with nine tonnes - and the level of deformation under load may not exceed 50 mm.

While their principal aim may be F1 safety, the above tests have also helped improve safety for road users, 3000 of whom die each day across the world. For example, the FIA has an active role in the Euro-NCAP road-car testing programme, while Williams partners Allianz use the global reach of Formula One racing to alert fans to the importance of safety, both on the track and on public roads.

Did you know …that a Formula One car’s cockpit walls, which were heightened by five centimetres in 2008, must withstand impacts equivalent to 250 tonnes?

At the heart of the modern Formula One car is the 'monocoque' (French for ‘single shell’), or 'tub'. It incorporates the driver's survival cell and cockpit, and also forms the principal component of the car's chassis, with engine and front suspension mounted directly to it. Its roles as structural component and safety device both require it to be as strong as possible. Like the rest of the car, most of the monocoque is constructed from carbon fibre - up to 60 layers of it in places - with high-density woven laminate panels covering a strong, light honeycomb structure inside.

At the heart of the monocoque lies the survival cell and within that the cockpit. For safety reasons, no fuel, oil or water lines may pass through the cockpit and the driver must be able to get out within five seconds without having to remove anything except seatbelts and steering wheel (which he must be able to refit within another five seconds). The width of the cockpit must be 50 centimetres at the steering wheel and 30 centimetres at the pedals. The temperature inside the cockpit averages 50 degrees Celsius.

To ease a driver’s escape, the dimensions of the cockpit opening have grown over the years. Currently it must be 850mm long, at least 350mm wide at the pedals and 450mm wide at the steering wheel, with the rear half wider still at 520mm. The rear 375mm of the cockpit’s side walls must rise upwards at an angle of at least 16 degrees (to reduce the risk of injury in the event of one car flying over the top of another) and the edge of the cockpit must be enclosed in an energy-absorbing material with a thickness of at least 100mm.

The survival cell is surrounded by deformable crash-protection structures which absorb energy in an accident and features a roll-over hoop behind the driver’s head, made of metal or composite materials. The survival cell’s flanks are protected by a 6mm layer of carbon and Zylon, a material used to make bullet-proof vests, to prevent objects such as carbon fibre splinters entering the cockpit.

The driver’s seat is a single plastic cast, tailored to provide optimal support. Since 1999, rules have stipulated it may not be installed as a fixed part of the car. Instead it must be possible to remove the driver and seat as one after an accident, thus eradicating the risk of spinal damage. Compulsory since 1972, today F1 seat belts comprise a six-point harness, which can be released by the driver with a single hand movement.

All Formula One cars must be equipped with a fire extinguisher system. This automatically spreads foam around the chassis and engine area in the event of fire and can also be operated manually by either the driver or marshals. Also required in the cockpit is a master switch that deactivates the car’s electronics, fuel pumps and rear light.

An accident data recorder is also compulsory. Linked to a medical warning system, it registers important information such as speed and deceleration to tell medics how severe the impact was. In addition, there is a cockpit display with red, blue and yellow lights which informs the driver about any warning flags being waved around the circuit.

Did you know … that during his high-speed crash at the Canadian Grand Prix in 2007, Robert Kubica was subjected to more than 28 times the acceleration of gravity? This meant that his body effectively weighed two tons instead of 73 kilograms. Millions of spectators expected the worst, but thanks to the strict safety precautions in Formula One racing Kubica suffered only minor bruises.

Did you know … that for a monocoque, about 30 square metres of carbon-fibre mats are processed, in which the individual fibres are five times thinner than a human hair?

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