Father being charged for damage to a gas pipe

[DXP55]

Does he get paid wayleave for a gas pipe to another property over his land ??
When I moved to this house I had a trench dig out up my drive to put duct in to drop electric from over head to underground and it had to be minimum of 600mm deep with tape on top saying electric.
Pipped by 1 min

 

[Gaygle]

In October my dad called me for help because he'd just damaged a gas pipe while digging in his garden. Called the hotline, they sent someone out - who happened to mention it wasn't his pipe, it was the neighbours - and all sorted. But today he's had a £600 charge for the repair in the post.
The letter is interesting. It gives 3 criteria which allow them to charge people for damage, and - because it's not his pipe - I don't think any of them actually apply, unless they can specifically claim he was negligent. Now their letter has FAQs about how there's no minimum depth for the pipe, and there doesn't have to be anything to identify the presence of one. Which is all well and good. But that's not the same as saying it is automatically negligent if you hit one, even though there's no way of knowing it's there.

I have written this letter. Do you think it's reasonable?

Any suggestions before I click send?

Yeah, I think that's pretty reasonable. You could go into more detail as to why it it wasn't negligent? Send photos of the surrounding ground, measurements of how deep the pipe was buried etc to underscore your point that your father wasn't negligent for daring to dig 6 inches into the ground. They only person who was negligent was whoever laid that pipe so close to the surface where it could be damaged so easily. Maybe consider talking to health and safety about it as a possible safety risk, which you could also put in the letter. HSE website says that a gas service pipe should be laid at a minimum of 375mm on private ground, which is over double the distance that it was buried.

Negligence is the failing to take reasonable care over something, which should be foreseeable. Digging 6 inches in your garden (like you would to put a small plant in the ground!) is not negligence unless you have ignored warnings.

Examples of negligence would be that you've been digging so deep and you failed to check plans for any utility pipes, and damaged a pipe as a result as this is foreseeable and it would have been reasonable to check plans before digging. Or you've kept digging down despite there being warning tape above the pipe.

I wouldn't pay the £600 at all. They're just trying their luck as big companies do, using their standing to intimidate people who don't want to get into a fight with big companies who have more vastly more money and resources than them.

 

[samurl]

I'm not aware he signed anything at the time. I'll check with him tomorrow.

To be honest, if they don't back down pretty much immediately, he'll probably just pay it. I don't think there's much mileage in talking to solicitors and the like and potentially costing himself far more.

I would go to a solicitor either, I doubt he'll need to. But if they know he'll take the document further for analysis, they'll no doubt take into higher consideration whether it's worth their efforts (which are likely happy go lucky).

 

[GGizmo]

I don't think its reasonable for the pipe to be that close to the surface and not expect accidental damage.

There doesn't seem to be any law, just guides, after doing a quick google.

I'd take legal advice to see if the case is worth challenging.

 

[fez]

No idea on the law on this but that sounds utterly mad. Thats "I forked my lawn to try and help it drain a bit better" depth.

 

[Rroff]

No idea on the law on this but that sounds utterly mad. Thats "I forked my lawn to try and help it drain a bit better" depth.

My dad recently found out there is a poorly armoured high voltage cable at a shallow depth running from the overhead mains pole at the bottom of the garden, across his lawn, to power the nearby street lights... the council came along and dug up a large bit of his lawn as the cable had been damage in some way (not due to anything we had done) resulting in the street lights not working.

Seems utterly mad to me - he'd been out there digging out tree roots in another part of the garden a few months before.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Just out of interest @bazzabear, did your dad sign any paperwork at the time, acknowledging that he was responsible for the damage caused, and that he would be liable for all costs incurred to repair the damage?

He doesn't have to. It will be covered by the general law that asserts the property owner (or anyone they hire) as responsible for damage to third party assets.

Why is it so different from water, where if it's not yours or is shared it's the water companies problem.

Not quite how it works.
Maintenance on shared connections, or the lack of it resulting in degredation and/or failure, is the water company's issue... but actual third party damage is usually the problem of that third party. The water company will likely fix it, but the third party will pay for it.

And I thought there was a minimum depth much like water.

There is, but it depends on circumstances and only applies to new installations from a certain date.
There is no way most of that could be applied to older city assets, for example.

If the pipe was so close to the surface i'd expect it to have been marked with tape, 4" is totally and utterly taking the P.

"However, these depths are only a guide and should not be relied on when carrying out work near gas services or mains. For example, road levelling, landscaping and other changes to ground conditions after a gas main or service has been laid (often decades before) can result in the depth of the ground cover changing over time. Also, gas pipes may have projections coming from them, such as valves, which are not shown on plans and may have less depth of cover than the pipe."

Ground movement is a big factor in buried services. Most degredation to our assets occurs due to this, largely driven by vehicle traffic.

Also I wouldn't pay it. Nothing will come of it they'll just give up trying to collect the invoice in the end.

No, they'll just pass it on to debt recovery services.
They'll first try everything else they can, from payment plans to reduced billing, but they will NOT simply let it go, especially with regulators tightening spending.

 

[Firestar_3x]

There is, but it depends on circumstances and only applies to new installations from a certain date.
There is no way most of that could be applied to older city assets, for example.

"However, these depths are only a guide and should not be relied on when carrying out work near gas services or mains. For example, road levelling, landscaping and other changes to ground conditions after a gas main or service has been laid (often decades before) can result in the depth of the ground cover changing over time. Also, gas pipes may have projections coming from them, such as valves, which are not shown on plans and may have less depth of cover than the pipe."

Ground movement is a big factor in buried services. Most degredation to our assets occurs due to this, largely driven by vehicle traffic.

The stuff from the HSE is best practice, we deal with live and legacy pipelines and pipe work for COMAH sites all round the UK.

Provided the ground covering has not been moved over they years by the home owner and the installation was carried out by the network, it is not a reasonable risk mitigation to place a live gas pipe a minimal distance from the surface without any either above or below grade warnings, i.e. marker flags, posts or tape.

Provided it has not been tampered with the installation is negligent, simple as, if we came across this in an industrial setting and it caused a major accident the HSE would have a field day.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Provided it has not been tampered with the installation is negligent, simple as, if we came across this in an industrial setting and it caused a major accident the HSE would have a field day.

If the installation is newer than the regulations, yes, but there are millions of installations that predate that and there is no way a company can go round ripping up peoples' gardens and demolishing houses just to ensure they comply with that, just as they cannot be held responsible for anything resulting from natural ground movement .

 

[moon man]

I did this once the guy who came out said don't worry we will put it down to corrosion, he then joked with his assistant that it was a plastic pipe, but never had any comeback, digging a fence post hole on a border

 

[Firestar_3x]

If the installation is newer than the regulations, yes, but there are millions of installations that predate that and there is no way a company can go round ripping up peoples' gardens and demolishing houses just to ensure they comply with that, just as they cannot be held responsible for anything resulting from natural ground movement .

Totally, it is unreasonable to retrospectively apply this stuff to god knows what went on in the past.

If the land owner is not responsible for the lines on his property, I'd argue now the shallow line issue has been identified it is negligent of the network operator / owner to leave it like that.

 

[FoxEye]

Is it possible (likely to succeed) to ask the provider to move the gas pipe off his property? Assuming there is no absolute requirement for running it on his property?

Or at the very least relay it to a correct depth?

 

[ttaskmaster]

Totally, it is unreasonable to retrospectively apply this stuff to god knows what went on in the past.

And that's why I pointed out that it only applies to new installations.

If the land owner is not responsible for the lines on his property, I'd argue now the shallow line issue has been identified it is negligent of the network operator / owner to leave it like that.

It depends on how much disruption it would cause this and the surrounding customers, as well as the costs involved and whether it's really necessary works.
Yes, we could fix these and make this guy's back garden all nice and compliant for the rules... or we could go stop a train from derailing and killing a few hundred people, due to vandalism of the assets beneath destabilising the track.
Where would you want the money spent?

Under Section 105A and the 2011 Private Sewer Adoptions, we now have about 60,000km of additional sewers that were previously private, laid by whichever cowboys the developers hired in, and which are quite likely to contravene the newer regs, but there is no way in hell that we're going to go check them all and I bet there's no way your lot will go round to check that we're checking them all.

Is it possible (likely to succeed) to ask the provider to move the gas pipe off his property? Assuming there is no absolute requirement for running it on his property? Or at the very least relay it to a correct depth?

It's possible, but since it's not causing any operational issues or presenting a threat, it may come with a cost that he'd have to pay. Rerouting pipes isn't always easy, as people tend to build things over the top of them, and customers don't like having their gardens ripped up just so one neighbour can plant some tomatoes.
Depends on the company, really. Some might offer such a service, some might find convenient excuses to make it happen like the 'corroded' plastic pipe above.

 

[bazzabear]

They contacted me on the 4th to tell me they were raising a dispute case for me, but I've heard nothing since.

 

[Malevolence]

Tell them you want the pipe moved from off his property so your Father can dig the fish pond he's always wanted.

 

[glenimp617]

"no minimum depth for the pipe, and there doesn't have to be anything to identify the presence of one"

That sounds like a load of crap to me

 

[silversurfer]

I have no idea here, but surely there is some law that states how 'deep' you own property to?

Amazingly I dont think there was any limit till fairly recent years. They changed the law to reflect mineral rights and the giant fracking potential possible and that whole industry coming to the UK. Ask someone in the know on these things, I dont think OP dad is liable personally as he has reasonable use of his land. If its not marked how is he at fault but the law and whats right is two different things.

 

[rubberduck]

Claim dad has no recollection of damaging a pipe, ask for evidence that pipe was damaged as a result of human interference and not wear and tear.

 

[LeMson]

I have the urge to minecraft my back garden and see what's down there, and how far I can get

 

[FoxEye]

I have the urge to minecraft my back garden and see what's down there, and how far I can get

I tried that, but it turns out it's not nearly as easy as Minecraft makes it look. After a couple days I just had a big ditch. Up to my neck, but no caverns or diamonds or anything!

(Buried an old rusty bin and some other metal stuff we had lying around, some future metal detectorist is going to be very disappointed )