Faulty 360's: what's the crack?
- Thread starter fragster
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Because when you get a sudden rush of 1.5 million consoles worldwide in a single month, you don't expect there to be problems on a daily basis do you? Of course not, I would expect LESS than 31 consoles (60 odd now) to be faulty.
BTW a washing machine fails in this country every 5 minutes. Washing machines must have an awfully high failure rate. (60 / 5) * 24 * 365 = 105,120 wachine machines dead each year. Now given that we know 500,000 X360s were sold in Europe in December, that means 12,500 should have failed (2.5% failure rate). 12500 / 31 (days) = 403.2 failures each day. Thats 16.8 X360s failing each hour. Or one X360 failing every 3.57 minutes.
Now when you consider to have a failure rate HALF of the electronic standard (standard is 5%, MS once said it was a 2.5% return rate iirc), an X360 had to fail every 3.57 minutes during December, is it a wonder so many threads popped up?
Its amazing how many people didn't pay attention / completely forgot basic statistics & probability at school. Or how statistical anomolies often occur in groups. Or the people who forgot about fair tests / reliable datasets in Science class.
BTW a washing machine fails in this country every 5 minutes. Washing machines must have an awfully high failure rate. (60 / 5) * 24 * 365 = 105,120 wachine machines dead each year. Now given that we know 500,000 X360s were sold in Europe in December, that means 12,500 should have failed (2.5% failure rate). 12500 / 31 (days) = 403.2 failures each day. Thats 16.8 X360s failing each hour. Or one X360 failing every 3.57 minutes.
Now when you consider to have a failure rate HALF of the electronic standard (standard is 5%, MS once said it was a 2.5% return rate iirc), an X360 had to fail every 3.57 minutes during December, is it a wonder so many threads popped up?
Its amazing how many people didn't pay attention / completely forgot basic statistics & probability at school. Or how statistical anomolies often occur in groups. Or the people who forgot about fair tests / reliable datasets in Science class.
Boogle washing machines have lots of moving parts and also have things like limescale to deal with. All washing machines will definitely wear out at some point, it's just a matter of time. It isn't a fair comparison with games consoles IMO.
dirtydog said:
So you're saying a 2.5% failure rate is bad for a console, when the Industry average (for electronics equipment) is 5%? I used the washing machine example as a point of reference
As humans its very difficult to visualise large numbers. The distance to the sun for example is exceedingly large (it takes 7 minutes for light to reach the Earth from the Sun), yet it probably 'feels' like a fairly small distance. Same thing happens when you mention 500,000 consoles, it just sparks the response of 'meh'. 500,000 is a VERY large number, and a 2.5% failure rate, as I've shown results in a seemingly excessively large number of failures. Mathematically the failure rate is actually low, its just your interpretation that makes it appear large.
Oh, btw the consoles do have moving parts, and their own form of 'limescale'. You have an optical drive with a moving tray, moving disc, and a moving laser, all of which have to be exceedingly precise on the order of microns (your hair is thicker than the distance the laser has to move to follow a track). There are fans to keep everything cool, and there's dust (limescale). Also there's the issue of hot & cold, as you know things expand and contract as they get hot and cold, the large variances in the ICs cause quite a lot of stress - especially as a console is often turned off and on quite regularly. All electronic equipment will eventually fail, just like the washing machine. It may not appear to be a fair comparison initially, but when you look deeper its a lot closer than you would initially think. Limitations of the human mind strike back!
Surely all that matters is that there's a relatively substantial chance that whoever buys a 360 could have problems with it. Perhaps the occasional crash, perhaps the need a replacement. I think it's reasonable for poeple to be concerned about this, and if someone wants to wait for a new hardware issue, or a new batch, or whatever - often made-up - saving grace, let them. It's our prerogative as consumers to be cautious when subcribing to new technology.
Boogle said:
Yes but no console should have failed yet due to natural wear and tear as they are all too young. The figures for washing machine faults on the other hand will include many which fail through natural wear and tear, rather than manufacturing faults or design flaws. Do you see the difference?
dirtydog said:
Indeed I do, but I don't know the % failure rate of washing machines. I do know MS' official stance on the failure rate of the X360, and attempted to bring in some perspective.
If a 2.5%-5% chance is too high for you, then don't get one! However, make sure you're very careful around the house, the vast majority of accidents happen in your own home (far far higher than 5%)
Well me and 2 mates have one each and we have had no problems that’s 0/3 faulty and mine is on from the time I get home from work till I go to sleep and I also play all weekend until I start drinking and its time for it to get turned off lol.
The way I look at it is if it’s going break its best to have it on as much as possible then if its going break it will break early.
The way I look at it is if it’s going break its best to have it on as much as possible then if its going break it will break early.
Boogle said:Indeed I do, but I don't know the % failure rate of washing machines. I do know MS' official stance on the failure rate of the X360, and attempted to bring in some perspective.
If a 2.5%-5% chance is too high for you, then don't get one! However, make sure you're very careful around the house, the vast majority of accidents happen in your own home (far far higher than 5%)
2.5%-5% is fine, I'm just wondering whether it really is that low
dirtydog said:2.5%-5% is fine, I'm just wondering whether it really is that low
Indeed, that is a very good question. I was definitely doubting it until I started to crunch the numbers. As it stands, I personally reckon its pretty close to 5%, reason for that is its brand new hardware being produced on a much larger scale than the norm. All console releases have an 'above average' number of problems (usually the optical drive
).Its definitely not as high as 15-20% though imo, if it were then we would have a lot more than a thread (as in 'my console broke', not 'omg 360s are breaking but I don't own one / mine is fine') every couple of days.
I'm just sitting back and reserving judgement, and letting other people be guinea pigs basically. I'll wait and see how the 360 fares over the hot summer, and probably pick one up towards the end of the year, perhaps a later revision with some of the issues fixed. Not to mention by which time there may be some games which grab me as other than PGR3, nothing's out right now to get me overly excited. Not when I already have an original Xbox to enjoy
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Caustic said:
once. out of the 15 or so i've built myself
Why is it that people can stress that the odds are that some people will be unlucky with thier new console/sky box etc, and others will straight away say they are wrong?
difference of opinion i guess
dirtydog said:I'm just sitting back and reserving judgement, and letting other people be guinea pigs basically. I'll wait and see how the 360 fares over the hot summer, and probably pick one up towards the end of the year, perhaps a later revision with some of the issues fixed. Not to mention by which time there may be some games which grab me as other than PGR3, nothing's out right now to get me overly excited. Not when I already have an original Xbox to enjoy
That's exactly what im doing...and its the firsat time i've ever felt that way about any hardware, other than a new generation of cpu and its chipset.
james.miller said:once. out of the 15 or so i've built myself
Which is a 6% failure rate.
I'm naturally unluck when it comes to failing hardware - It took apple 3 ipods before they sent one that worked more than a week, I'm on my 3rd K8 Neo2 motherboard and had a Radeon 8500 which also failed twice. I ordered a Dell LCD which had dodgy connections and my PSP had a faulty shoulde button!
So far my 360 has been fine - maybe its karma - I'm well overdue a bit of electronic luck!
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well, that's only 1 doa component out of the god knows how many went in to those pc's. It's only 6% if you count the pc's as one component
Long overdue by the sounds of it lol
Long overdue by the sounds of it lol
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no it isnt, becuase you dont choose the components you put in a 360. if something goes down in a pc you get a new component - problem solved. If something goes down in a 360 the whole thing is sent back.
You really can't compare the two.
You really can't compare the two.
Sorry I dont understand. Are we talking about the merits of self build vs console or the fact that a % of components will fail? A 360 is essentially a PC. It is made up of x components, as is a PC. a % of those components will fail causing the device to fail. What happens after that has nothing to do with it. You've said that 6% of your PC builds have failed, yet seem unwilling to accept this is acceptable for a console?
Having said that, the RMA process to return a faulty mobo/graphics card etc is hardly any more straight forward than retuning a 360 to MS/shop.
Having said that, the RMA process to return a faulty mobo/graphics card etc is hardly any more straight forward than retuning a 360 to MS/shop.
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because its not 6% of the pc's that have failed is it? the component in question was an ati r9500np. That was the only component that was doa out of every graphics card, every soundcard, every stick of ram, every cpu, every motherboard.......is that 6%?
I cant see your logic at all. A 360 is not a single lump that has failed. One thing in it has, rendering the machine useless, same as your PC. The PC doesnt work, and to make it work to spec you need to RMA the graphics card. You cant use the PC whilst its being returned, so whether you are returning a component or a whole PC makes no difference.
Its a simple manufacturing equation. You manufactured 15 PCs and 6% failed. MS manufactured x thousand consoles and x% failed. MS are only bolting together 3rd party components the same as you are, just in a bigger scale.
Its a simple manufacturing equation. You manufactured 15 PCs and 6% failed. MS manufactured x thousand consoles and x% failed. MS are only bolting together 3rd party components the same as you are, just in a bigger scale.
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