FIA to conduct further wing tests at Monza

I personally think the front-wing issue is a bit different to things like the exhaust diffuser and double diffuser. The latter are skirting rules that are desgned primarily to limit performance, but wasn't the fixed front-wing brought in for safety reasons to reduce wing-failures/damage and the subsequent 'skiing' of cars?

The FIA should be absolutely strict in enforcing safety rules, and video evidence should be enough.
 
What is the rule? ...
Curiously enough, I haven't seen an answer to this apparently fairly simple, straightforward question :confused:


... That would be like an athlete crying foul when they change drugs tests to identify new substances.
If it is the case that the rule is that "parts should be rigid and not moving" then I agree 100%, people are breaking the rule - whatever the temporary deficiencies in the testing protocols - which should be changed to catch offenders.


I am fed up with F1 being a benefit event for soddin' lawyers :mad:
 
Curiously enough, I haven't seen an answer to this apparently fairly simple, straightforward question :confused:


If it is the case that the rule is that "parts should be rigid and not moving" then I agree 100%, people are breaking the rule - whatever the temporary deficiencies in the testing protocols - which should be changed to catch offenders.


I am fed up with F1 being a benefit event for soddin' lawyers :mad:

Just googling reveals articles mentioning the exact rule for rigidity.

3.15 Aerodynamic influence :
With the exception of the cover described in Article 6.5.2 (when used in the pit lane), the driver adjustable
bodywork described in Article 3.18 and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car
influencing its aerodynamic performance :
- must comply with the rules relating to bodywork ;
- must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any
degree of freedom)
;

That's from the FIA 2010 Rule Summary article.
 
I would suggest that "must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any degree of freedom)" could be argued by a determined legal mind to refer to the fixing between the aerodynamic element and the "entirely sprung part of the car" and not to the aerodynamic element itself.
 
Well theres two thoughts here really, Demon that isn't the rule as I understand it, thats one simply saying the mechanism to secure the front wing to the main body and it can't move or flex from the movement of the main body, it also has to be attached to the chassis and not to the wheels or springs/anything involving the springs, IE when the main body moves up and down on the springs the wing should move with it.

Now it might slightly apply as the wing does actually seem to, from some pictures, "dip" forward, which would suggest part of the wing isn't rigidly secured. However that rule again is really talking about the section that clips on, not movement on other parts of the wing.

As I understand it the rule in question goes along the lines of "the wing must at no time get within X distance of the ground" . IE the wing can't while standing still be 5cm's above the ground which is the rule(guessing distance, can't remember it offhand) but can't flex under use so that in reality its only 1cm off the ground. The wing has to stay above this certain distance, thats the rule everyone is up in arms over as it seems ridiculously clear from every single race so far that all cars(actually was it Ferarri the other race their wing started looking a little, bouncy for want of a better word?) except Red Bull, the distance between wing and ground seems the same on say a McClaren, on the grid, into a high speed corner, down a high speed straight, under breaking, etc, etc, etc.

This is the fundamental issue, under race conditions that Red Bull wing seems to be all the hell over the place, bouncing up and down, WAY closer to the ground than EVERY OTHER CAR and it seems to be in certain stituations.

Breaking the rules isn't the aim of the teams, getting as close to the edge is, having a test unable to officially catch the problem doesn't mean the problem isn't there and that what they are doing is fine. The stupid thing is video is widely available showing the wing in different positions, and other cars don't show this, the specific rule says the wing can't flex as much as it VERY clearly is.

The wing as I understand it is also supposed to be rigid and fixed in position, in technical terms the wing might not actually be flexing, I think of a long piece of wood, put a weight on both ends with support in the middle and the wood will bend, thats flexing. The wing does in some pictures look more like its tilting forwards at an angle. If thats how the wing is working ok, officially its not flexing, and the flexing test might not catch it. But again AFAIK the wing isn't allowed to tilt and its still not supposed to be more than a certain distance from the ground. Its breaking several rules as far as I can tell, it flexes or "tilts" which it shouldn't, and this allows it to get closer to the ground, which is another separate rule which its also breaking, if its also basically a moveable part, either through some incredibly fancy technical term like its rigid until it has a current going through a material(thats from Batman Begins btw :p ) or through a driver controllable option that can be turned on and off, thats another rule they could be potentially breaking.

Why they can't video the car under high speed conditions with one of those uber high framerate camera's and compare the wings position relative to the chassis(as that would show obvious movement as the rule Demon showed clearly state the wing should be rigidly secured to the body). The problem appears to be red tape, officially they need a test they can do any time on any car to prove a break in the rules and they haven't got a test that catches it in the act.

The problem they might have is, if they finally announce they will change the test or check video evidence, they can plonk on a new rigid wing for the rest of the season and not get caught and keep their points. Red tape will probably prevent tape from before any new rule is brought in, from being used as evidence.
 
I personally think the front-wing issue is a bit different to things like the exhaust diffuser and double diffuser. .

Of course it is different neither of them are against the rules. Flexiable wing is specifically against the rules. Just because stuff passes scrutinising doesn't make it legal. As showen many times in the past. Scruternering is there to try and keep teams to the rules.
 
It gives them a chance to amend it (if needed ;)), so they can get on and race - fairly. I don't think it would be good to have teams missing at different races.

It didn't bother them with Honda. Changing the way they checked the car by lifting it up and pumping out more fuel. Even though honda proved at no time did they ever run underweight they got a two race ban.

Why then is Red Bull not getting the same treatment when it can be proved the wing is not maintaining the required clearance?

The closest scenario to this one is the michelins whichs were proved on video to be changing shape under racing load and although legal in static tests where told quickly they couldn't race them anymore.

They shouldn't be giving RB a chance, they should just say if at anytime from video we can prove your wing falls under the clearance limit you will be excluded from that race.

They would then not have to go through the charade of upping limits and tests each race and would leave it in the hands of red bull to sort out.
 
Well theres two thoughts here really, Demon that isn't the rule as I understand it, thats one simply saying the mechanism to secure the front wing to the main body and it can't move or flex from the movement of the main body, it also has to be attached to the chassis and not to the wheels or springs/anything involving the springs, IE when the main body moves up and down on the springs the wing should move with it.

That's the rule being banded around on various sites, in the newer rules summary it's 3.16, but I agree, it sounds more like it's in defence to the fact it's believed the nose deflects downwards.

I do agree with your thoughts on minimum heights, you would think that these override everything, if no part of the front wing can protrude below a minimum distance off the ground, this should apply at any time, whether aero loaded or not. However, suspension travel will cause natural momentary excursions into this region, so I'm not convinced the rules are watertight for this kind of reason.

I just don't get why in modern times the rules can't be more exacting, and dynamic testing brought in to play, off the top of my head, surely trackside video and forced 'reference' stickers on the cars would allow easy confirmation of dimensions under dynamic conditions. Hell, even fixed onboard camera's can show you a lot, if the man in the street can see from the onboard camera that the front wing is massively deflecting, surely the FIA can use this to prove a breach of rules, or amend rules accordingly.
 
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Pretty sure the reference plane is based on the body of the car, so suspension/ride height have no play in the rule. Although obviously has to be taken into account on video.
 
I don't think that rule implies that the wing itself can't flex, only that the the joint itself can't move (ie pivot, rotate or fold like the control services on a wing). If the rule was that it can't flex, it would just say it must be rigid.
 
I don't think that rule implies that the wing itself can't flex, only that the the joint itself can't move (ie pivot, rotate or fold like the control services on a wing). If the rule was that it can't flex, it would just say it must be rigid.
I agree, although if the mount is sprung then that would break the above rule and if flex break the lower rule.

3.15 Aerodynamic influence :
With the exception of the cover described in Article 6.5.2 (when used in the pit lane), the driver adjustable bodywork described in Article 3.18 and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance :
- must comply with the rules relating to bodywork.
- must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any degree of freedom).
- must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.
 
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