Firefighters set to strike.

While I do sympathize as firefighters do an outstanding job, how much exactly is 40% of the pension? How much does he pay and how much will he receive if he retires 17 (seventeen!) years earlier than other people? Not having a go but without actual figures its difficult to really comment on the issue. Most public sector workers receive extremely generous pensions, far and above what anyone else can expect, so a 60% pension for retiring 17 years earlier seems very good to me?

Not as much as you think...

Bare in mind the police have similar things I believe along with other sectors where a 60-65 yr old working at full capacity is not viable.

My old man has been a firefighter for 15 years and also receives BA instruction, Urban Search and Rescue and Line Rescue stipends (he REALLY loves his job).

He earns nowhere near the 29k quoted by the government...

When I had my working placement last year (16k), along with my student support, I earned more than he did.
 
Before people start shouting about how Emergency Workers get a nice pension, they should first understand how much the EWs are putting in over the term.

Police, for example, are going to be putting in 15% of their wages into the pension. 15% of £36000 (rough top whack for a PC) is £5,400 per year which equates to around £162,000 over a 30 year career for EMPLOYEE CONTRIBUTIONS ONLY. That doesnt include police contributions.

No wonder they get a good pension.

Who else here personally puts £450 into a pension every month?
 
most construction workers surely are minimum wage? same for farmers who don't actually own the farm.

I don't know about fisherman but it's seasonal work?

Depends I guess, self employed skilled workers earn a lot I thought - there's serious money in white vans these days. Farmers, fair enough I was thinking of the farm owners tbf. Fishing, try going to somewhere like Peterhead and seeing 17 year olds driving around in £50k motors.
 
Before people start shouting about how Emergency Workers get a nice pension, they should first understand how much the EWs are putting in over the term.

Police, for example, are going to be putting in 15% of their wages into the pension. 15% of £36000 (rough top whack for a PC) is £5,400 per year which equates to around £162,000 over a 30 year career for EMPLOYEE CONTRIBUTIONS ONLY. That doesnt include police contributions.

No wonder they get a good pension.

Who else here personally puts £450 into a pension every month?

And this all means nothing and miiss the issue.

Does the contributions cover the pension pot or not? It appears not.
Therfore there is not enough money in the system to pay these pension.

"To get the same pension from a private scheme firefighters would have to contribute twice as much."

Pensions are not set in stone. Just becuase you sign upto something doesnt mean thats what you will retire on, I think most of us realise this especially in the last 7or so years, when pople finally accepted they were unsutainable and something had to be done. Yes there are rules, regulations, contracts etc. but they certainly arent set in stone.
 
I fully support the Fire Brigade.

I deliver babies over the phone, talk 80 year old grandmothers through CPR as she attempts to revive the husband of 30 years, get abused by drunks who feel that they can tell me how to do my job because they've done a 1 day first aid course 4 years ago on a daily basis.

I've talked an inconsolable father through the resuscitation of his 3 year old daughter, calmed down the lorry driver who was doing 70 up a duel carriage way before hitting a person, stopping and heading back to find the bits of person that were left scattered on the carriage way. I've offered a shoulder to cry on for the suicidal sexual abuse victim and even had people confess murder to me. I've spent days at a time in a court room, waiting to give evidence, and I spend hours of my own time doing 'professional development' because the service I work for requires a number of training hours for recertification but does not offer protected learning time in which to do it.

I've also worked the last 3 Christmas Eve's and Christmas Days for no extra pay, and will work New Years Eve for no extra pay this year. This has meant I haven't spent a festive period with my family since I started my job. I work 12 hour shifts, both day and nights, which impacts on my health and social life.

I earn £18,000 a year. I've not had a pay rise since I started.

As a result I understand a fraction of the pressure my colleagues 'out on the road' feel.
 
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And this all means nothing and miiss the issue.

Does the contributions cover the pension pot or not? It appears not.
Therfore there is not enough money in the system to pay these pension.



Pensions are not set in stone. Just becuase you sign upto something doesnt mean thats what you will retire on, I think most of us realise this especially in the last 7or so years, when pople finally accepted they were unsutainable and something had to be done. Yes there are rules, regulations, contracts etc. but they certainly arent set in stone.

Something has been done though, anyone who joined after 2006 would go onto a new less generous pension scheme.
Anyone with 10 years or less left are fully protected on the old scheme, they would see no difference. This only affects a minority of Firefighters, surely it would have been better to let the existing pension run it's course?
 
Before people start shouting about how Emergency Workers get a nice pension, they should first understand how much the EWs are putting in over the term.

Police, for example, are going to be putting in 15% of their wages into the pension. 15% of £36000 (rough top whack for a PC) is £5,400 per year which equates to around £162,000 over a 30 year career for EMPLOYEE CONTRIBUTIONS ONLY. That doesnt include police contributions.

No wonder they get a good pension.

Who else here personally puts £450 into a pension every month?

If only it was just £450 a month. I haven't got my latest wage slip to hand, but in June 2013, I paid £455.40 in tax, £297.05 in National Insurance Contributions and £420.91 in Pension contribution. That is a total of £1172.96 that the Government get straight back out of my wages before I even see it in my bank account. (bear in mind the pension contributions have gone up since June)

Multiply that over 30 years or even the 40 years that they're advocating Officers now have to serve to get a full pension and its quite an amount of money that they could use to bolster the pension.

I earn my money, I pay my taxes and I contribute to society - however I actually end up with less in my back pocket than some workshy individuals get on benefits. Yet myself and my collegues (plus the others in the Emergency Services) are criticised. Incredible isn't it?
 
If only it was just £450 a month. I haven't got my latest wage slip to hand, but in June 2013, I paid £455.40 in tax, £297.05 in National Insurance Contributions and £420.91 in Pension contribution. That is a total of £1172.96 that the Government get straight back out of my wages before I even see it in my bank account. (bear in mind the pension contributions have gone up since June)

So your pension contribution is actually less than £450 a month. The rest is the same that anyone on your salary would pay.

Multiply that over 30 years or even the 40 years that they're advocating Officers now have to serve to get a full pension and its quite an amount of money that they could use to bolster the pension.

If only they didn't have to spend all that tax money on things like hospitals, education, transport, defence, welfare, state pensions and all the other costs of running a country! :D

I earn my money, I pay my taxes and I contribute to society - however I actually end up with less in my back pocket than some workshy individuals get on benefits. Yet myself and my collegues (plus the others in the Emergency Services) are criticised. Incredible isn't it?

Not entirely sure cutting benefits to pay for emergency service workers pensions is a great idea, but I am sure it will be a Daily Mail vote winner!

People are living longer so pensions are more expensive. What taxes do you want to see go up or what services do you want to see cut to pay for emergency service pensions?
 
Or.. we could have a strategy of growth and equality for the UK to pull us out of this blinkered race to the bottom cut society everybody seems to comfortable with.
 
Or.. we could have a strategy of growth and equality for the UK to pull us out of this blinkered race to the bottom cut society everybody seems to comfortable with.

Which are some very nice words, but don't really have an awful lot of substance behind them. What does this strategy of growth and equality look like? What does it entail? How is it funded? How do we know it will work or will we all be worse off because of it?
 
...what they are expecting people to do is to work longer, pay more into the pension and actually get less out at the end than those retiring today. Is that fair?

Fair? Ha, it may not look fair, but what you've described there is what's facing all of us in the western world! A lot of folks have some pretty unlikely expectations about the pension they'll get.
 
Which are some very nice words, but don't really have an awful lot of substance behind them. What does this strategy of growth and equality look like? What does it entail? How is it funded? How do we know it will work or will we all be worse off because of it?

As equal substance as meekly accepting a fate ill behoved.

We are not going to be better off in the future, the writing has been on the wall for a long time, so any alternative is simply better by the virtue of offering an alternative to a global leader in equality and decline.
 
As equal substance as meekly accepting a fate ill behoved.

At least I know what that looks like whereas your idea seems to be a bit nebulous. Which is why I asked what your strategy for growth and equality is so I could compare with what we have.

We are not going to be better off in the future, the writing has been on the wall for a long time, so any alternative is simply better by the virtue of offering an alternative to a global leader in equality and decline.

But you aren't offering an alternative so how can I support it? You also only have to look around the world to see that many alternatives can indeed be much worse than what we have now.
 
I was going to do my best to stay away from looking at posts on this forum as it's only going to annoy me when I see people criticizing us for going on strike and believing the lies that the MP's and media spout - yes lets think back to the last few years about MP's lying about expenses or the media with the whole phone hacking scandal!

I've never for one moment wanted to strike, as I don't think it's going to make a difference to what we're trying to achieve and all I can see it doing is driving the public away from us and losing their support - although reading the some of the stuff on the internet sometimes it seems like they couldn't give a **** and everyone's in it for themselves and couldn't care what we get - as long as we turn up when they need us.

I'm maybe lucky in the sense that I work in Scotland and, at the moment, won't be going on strike as the Gov't up here look like they might be able to compromise on some issues.

What they Gov't are doing is saying "you will pay more, work longer, receive less and oh, by the way, see if you don't pass your medical? Say goodbye to employers contributions!"

Glacius, have you looked into the way our pensions run? As you said that there is a shortfall and someone has to pay the deficit. That wasn't the way the Fire Pension was supposed to work and as you said, it wasn't set in stone? It was with us. Our pensions were never invested and so, were not liable to the markets failing or going bad. If you want to look at it simply, our pension contributions were put into a pot and it was used to pay the retired members. This started to fail when the Gov't needed cash for roads, buildings etc and then changed the pensions for new comers and froze recruitment. They have reduced member contributions and as such, are now bringing in less. The government are now using this as excuse to try and get more money out of us when our pension was sustainable.

I'm supposed to retire at 60 and if I fail my medical, and there is no jobs within the fire service (there was 6 jobs in the UK last year which people could transfer into) that I can do, then I will be sacked. Not medically retired - sacked! That means so pension for me until I reach pension age and I lose my employers contributions.

What lunawolfy posted earlier about the fitness standards we have to achieve is correct. The Gov't got an independent study to look at the standards currently and his findings were that the vast majority of people employed will not reach it. As well as saying that virtually no females would be able to reach the target they have set! The Fire Service has spent millions on trying to recruit females into this job and break the stigma - yet the Gov't have chosen to ignore the FBU's advice, as well as the independent review, to go ahead with their proposals.

As well as this, are you the British public, happy for a 58 year old man to be coming up and trying to rescue you from a fire? Seriously think about that. There's a retained guy in my station who is 58 and retired from whole time. This guy was supposedly the fittest guy in the station is his prime and is still in decent-ish shape but when you see him at fire's getting on/off the appliance - I dread to think what I will be like. That's where we and the public are at risk.

This isn't about getting more money. It's about getting what you signed up to. I can't walk into a bank and say "Mr Banker, the mortgage that I signed up to, I'm not happy with that, I am now going to pay at 2% interest". That is more or less what the Gov't are doing to us. We signed a contract and it should be honored. I don't see how the Gov't are not breaking the law by changing this.

I would also like to ask the people "against us" to look at the way the MP's run their job. They get yearly pay rises, pay less into a pension with better benefits, a free bar, travel expenses, second homes fully furnished and yet they are cutting the firefighters, police, nurses etc etc. Is this correct?

This may not be the best post in the world as I have so much to say on the topic and it's hard to fit it in, but we've been negotiating with the Gov't for 2 years on this, and in July they put an offer on the table and said take it or leave it. That's why we're striking. As I said at the start, I don't want to strike, but if it's for my pension and my future - then I will.
 
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They might not be invested, but goverment secures them, so in fact it is the same as being invested, but rather than acul investing, the goverment just secures it.

As for sacipking, this is the same for any other industry. If your unfit to do yoour job, you're unfit. Do you think you are the only ones who have a physical job?

You still have a shortfall, so pay more, take less etc.
 
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