Football referees and their invincibility

fez said:
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Ps. Bring back colina, no one messed with that man.
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I remember being at a function where David Elleray was asked if he thought Colina was the best ref in the game.

He said that he didn't think he was technically the best, but as everyone respected (and probably feared :p) him, then that probably made him the best overall.

I think that's the heart of the problem, neither players, managers or fans respect the ref anymore (ok, with some justification).
The ref's these days seem too clinical, they to connect with the players more.

In the same talk David Elleray said one of the best bit of refereeing he saw was by Paul Durkin.
It was in a match where things were getting very heated, Paul Durkin blew for a foul and then as he walked up to the player he did a Max Wall walk (silly walk for all you young un's).
The players all started laughing and he calmed the game down.
 
Being a referee is one of the hardest jobs in the world because you are almost never going to please everyone.

How many here want to become a Referee? Working their way up from Sunday League running around in the cold and rain whilst all the while having all sorts of things shouted at you and often almost assaulted?

When a Manager is asked whether they would ever become a referee 99% of them say no way, yet they have the audacity to criticise one. Everyone makes mistakes, referees are human after all.

Put yourself in the referee's shoes and imagine how it would feel to recieve that kind of abuse week in week out.

With the amount of abuse ref’s receive at all levels from the sidelines, media, players, supporters, parents etc, no wonder we have a shortage!

EDIT: And no I'm not a referee myself :)
 
Tummy said:
No technology is not the answer.

A higher standard and consistancy of ref's is the answer, the FA have let standards slip in English football.

Train them better, maybe make them work in teams of officals, have the linesman play a bigger role.

Football is an art, not a science.

"micky mouse clubs like Sheffield Wednesday?"

Who do you support?
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By all means do all of that, but it won't change much. Linesmen already have to try and stay inline with the last man, aswell as try and pick out every touch on the ball.
I am Irish so I don't support anyone in particular. Don't take too much notice of my comment, it was just in reply to your snappy comment!

You can't have rugby's technology used in the same way as football unless it's to be used retrospectively, i.e. to dish out cards ro ban players for fouls.
During the game it can't be done as footballs too fluid, cricket, rugby, American sports etc. are all stop/start.
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Do you watch those sports? Cricket can go for hours without the video ref been called upon. In rugby it's only used to see if a try should be awarded or not.
I think a good starting point would be use the tennis system. Each captain has a set number of challenges, maybe even just 1, to the video ref. If a player is convinced that they have been wronged then the captain can ask for it to be looked at. And lets face, players protesting every 2-3 minutes slows the game down a lot more than 1-2 calls to a video ref.
 
JamesU2005 said:
Being a referee is one of the hardest jobs in the world because you are almost never going to please everyone.

How many here want to become a Referee? Working their way up from Sunday League running around in the cold and rain whilst all the while having all sorts of things shouted at you and often almost assaulted?

When a Manager is asked whether they would ever become a referee 99% of them say no way, yet they have the audacity to criticise one. Everyone makes mistakes, referees are human after all.

Put yourself in the referee's shoes and imagine how it would feel to recieve that kind of abuse week in week out.

With the amount of abuse ref’s receive at all levels from the sidelines, media, players, supporters, parents etc, no wonder we have a shortage!

EDIT: And no I'm not a referee myself :)
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Life doesnt work like that though. To become prime minister you wont have slobbed your way through school and bummed around at uni. By your logic, if you are not prepared to become PM then you have no right to criticise.

Being a good referee isnt about pleasing everyone, it is about being right. In 90% of decisions there is a correct decision. Whether 100,000 people think it was a penalty or not doesnt make an iota of a difference.

If you make the choice to be a referee then you take the consequences of that decision. At the higher levels it must be quite nice not to have the level of abuse that you get in sunday league football. A 65 year old man complaining about your decisions or fitness isnt the worst thing that will ever happen to you. I understand that there are other factors when you referee at the top levels such as crown reaction etc but there is no justification for them to be unanswerable for their decisions.

Put it this way, if there was an explained reason behind every decision then people would be able to judge the referee. Did he get it wrong because his thinking is off, because he was in the wrong position or because he is not very good.

Thats the point isnt it; a referees job is to be in the perfect position to see what he needs to see. If he cant see because he is in the wrong position then that is a problem. If he is incapable of being in the right places at the right times to see incidents then he is a poor ref. You cant just make an excuse for them and say 'Well he couldnt see it from that angle.'
 
fez said:
Life doesnt work like that though. To become prime minister you wont have slobbed your way through school and bummed around at uni. By your logic, if you are not prepared to become PM then you have no right to criticise.

Being a good referee isnt about pleasing everyone, it is about being right. In 90% of decisions there is a correct decision. Whether 100,000 people think it was a penalty or not doesnt make an iota of a difference.

If you make the choice to be a referee then you take the consequences of that decision. At the higher levels it must be quite nice not to have the level of abuse that you get in sunday league football. A 65 year old man complaining about your decisions or fitness isnt the worst thing that will ever happen to you. I understand that there are other factors when you referee at the top levels such as crown reaction etc but there is no justification for them to be unanswerable for their decisions.

Put it this way, if there was an explained reason behind every decision then people would be able to judge the referee. Did he get it wrong because his thinking is off, because he was in the wrong position or because he is not very good.

Thats the point isnt it; a referees job is to be in the perfect position to see what he needs to see. If he cant see because he is in the wrong position then that is a problem. If he is incapable of being in the right places at the right times to see incidents then he is a poor ref. You cant just make an excuse for them and say 'Well he couldnt see it from that angle.'
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Everyone has the right to criticise yes but in the form of physical or mental abuse? Is that justifiable in any profession?

Everyone makes mistakes, the referee can not be expected to get every decision right or be in the correct position 100% of the time. Even the so called best ref's in the world make mistakes.

The way certain high profile managers criticise the officials week in week out is giving the young players the wrong idea.

We are in a blame everyone else society nowadays.
 
JamesU2005 said:
Everyone has the right to criticise yes but in the form of physical or mental abuse? Is that justifiable in any profession?

Everyone makes mistakes, the referee can not be expected to get every decision right or be in the correct position 100% of the time. Even the so called best ref's in the world make mistakes.

The way certain high profile managers criticise the officials week in week out is giving the young players the wrong idea.

We are in a blame everyone else society nowadays.
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I think we are talking about slightly different things here. Im just focussing on the professional refs, I do not envy the lower league ones. Referees do make mistakes and thats part of the game, my main point is that they make some absolute mares at times and never seem to suffer consequences. Most of the time manager hold their tongues about refs but sometimes they cant help having a dig.

When this happens they get a ban and a fine. There is a lot more pressure and stress to being a manager than a referee and yet managers have to watch what they say and do and refs never have any worries.
 
fez said:
I think we are talking about slightly different things here. Im just focussing on the professional refs, I do not envy the lower league ones. Referees do make mistakes and thats part of the game, my main point is that they make some absolute mares at times and never seem to suffer consequences. Most of the time manager hold their tongues about refs but sometimes they cant help having a dig.

When this happens they get a ban and a fine. There is a lot more pressure and stress to being a manager than a referee and yet managers have to watch what they say and do and refs never have any worries.
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We are all making fair points.

But ref's do have consequences for getting decisions wrong, they can be demoted to lower leagues, whether they get paid less for being demoted I don't know.
 
JamesU2005 said:
With the amount of abuse ref’s receive at all levels from the sidelines, media, players, supporters, parents etc, no wonder we have a shortage!
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This is the problem imo. The abuse they take is ridiculous, who would want that week in week out? If there was more respect for referees, more people would want to do it, and hopefuly this increase in refs will produce more top quality referees.

By the way, I don't watch football at all, but any reason why you can't have more than one ref in a game? It's works in American Football. Just have a couple on each touchline and 2 or 3 on the field. Get them mic'd up so they can instantly decide. That's not going to slow anything down by more than a second or two.
 
jakeke said:
I still think the ref had every right to give that free kick at Stamford Bridge. Ferguson keeps using the ref as an excuse for not getting results this season, it's kinda cringeworthy

The last few years as an Arsenal fan have left me desensitised from bad referees, there have been so many tragic mistakes that I now expect it and realise they're human and that there will always be bad decisions until the technology is upgraded.

Edit - I don't think it's a football managers place to question/insult/abuse/critique a ref's performance and blame the ref for losing the game (as managers often do) in public. If they have problems they should be respectful, professional and mature and do it behind closed doors.
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Wenger is hardly immune to using something as an excuse when Arsenal lose though is he?
 
This seems like a bit of a non-topic, because, as said, refs do get penalised for poor performances. They're apparently awarded a rating based on their performance by a panel, which are then collated over the course of a season to show their ability. Better refs get moved up, worse refs go down.

And refs should absolutely not have to give post-match interviews. All that would do is allow witch-hunts. It wouldn't suddenly make the same ref better in forthcoming matches.

Tummy said:
Why should lower league clubs have to put up with **** refs?
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Because the pace is slower and the pressure lower? And it's hardly like they get **** refs. They just get the ones that aren't as good as the divisions above.

The reverse of your question is "Why should the best refs be in the biggest matches?" and I think you can see how ludicrous a question that is.
 
What i find amazing is how there weren't any red cards in the chelsea vs man utd game, there were at least 3 incidents off the ball where players were swinging for each other and neither the ref stopped the game or did andy gray comment on it. One was involving joe cole. I also saw nick barmby escape punishment from the ref for putting his hands up to faye when he stopped him taking a quick throw in. Too many times there is no action to be taken, chimbondna, eduardo should've had a penalty against wolves.

Tbh i dont really care weather there is technology or not as an arsenal fan we do get our fair share of luck at times!
 
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I just honestly think there is nowt wrong with saying what you think about the ref. It doesnt make any difference to the game or the outcome. Its about as much use as when a red card is given and the team all tries to remonstrate with the ref. Its because you are emotional and the game means a lot to you.

Players and managers get criticised by everyone; commentators, other managers and players. There seems little consequence of doing that. Football wouldnt be as entertaining without the controversy and difference of opinion. Sometimes 2 people will watch the same clip showing an event perfectly from every angle and they will still differ so its natural that in a game the ref and a lot of players and managers will feel differently about decisions. Why cant they voice that? Players will do it on the pitch with the ref.

Rooney and drogba have both said things to the camera they shouldnt have but it isnt taken as seriously as when a manager speaks out.
 
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fez said:
I just honestly think there is nowt wrong with saying what you think about the ref. It doesnt make any difference to the game or the outcome. Its about as much use as when a red card is given and the team all tries to remonstrate with the ref. Its because you are emotional and the game means a lot to you.

Players and managers get criticised by everyone; commentators, other managers and players. There seems little consequence of doing that. Football wouldnt be as entertaining without the controversy and difference of opinion. Sometimes 2 people will watch the same clip showing an event perfectly from every angle and they will still differ so its natural that in a game the ref and a lot of players and managers will feel differently about decisions. Why cant they voice that? Players will do it on the pitch with the ref.

Rooney and drogba have both said things to the camera they shouldnt have but it isnt taken as seriously as when a manager speaks out.
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I believe you shouldnt, if managers, players have a go at the ref, this feeds down to grass routes level. There you are on your own, if you try and cut down something at the top, it does feed down to grass routes.
 
Because it's a pretty simple equation:

Ways in which criticising the ref publicly and forcing him to defend each and every action to the press could be harmful:

  • Could destroy a ref's confidence.
  • Could be a massive waste of time if all the claims are made by biased managers.
  • Would subject a ref to a fairly intense grilling they wouldn't be allowed to walk away from (managers don't have to give post-match interviews, after all. Refs would, under this system).
  • Would put refs under further pressure during games, knowing they are going to have to answer for every decision.
  • Won't actually make him any better in future.

Ways in which it would be beneficial:

  • Errrr...
 
Owenb said:
Refs do get demoted if they have a very bad game.
Technology is the answer, not widespread critisim of refs.
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This.

Unofortunately technology will not solve all the problems out there especailly if we want a fast flowing game rather than a stop start game with continual video reviews, somewhat like American Football. However it can help it certain areas.

For me it would be diving and goal line technology. Other decisions such as every single free kick and every throw in etc would be insane, each game would last a few hours at least. But using goal line technology, maybe with a sensor in the ball which detects when it crosses the line would be a great help and stop that debate.

Whilst diving would be harder to solve personally I would use technology for retrospective punishment. They dive and win the game, well the red made the call and thats just unlucky. However turn around to the player and slap a 3 game ban on them for diving will quickly stop this happening.

In general people need to get off the backs of refs, comments about poor standards and refs these days being bad are false. We are in the game were every little incident is continually examined from 100 different angles (the ref only has one, maybe two if he uses his linesman) and when you you have an hour to come decision you may well disagree with the ref. But when the game is going as fast as it does and the ref has seconds to get a decision right then it is a fact that some decisions will be wrong, get over it.

On a side note I love it how the papers, TVs and radios trot out Graham Poll everytime a decision is wrong or questionable as if he is some sort of refereeing messiah. What the heck can that plonker say to anyone when he thinks it takes three yellow cards to make a red card!? :D What a ***
 
I have a lot of sympathies for ref's compared to some of the old timers who were characters in their own right. Joe Worral, George Courtney, Roger Milford and more recently Collina.

What I find Ironic is that the event of technology (Sky TV era) has undermined the public's confidence in referee's, so how can the introduction of even more technology make the situation better. Every single tackle is analysed from every angle at the slowest possible speed. So a half decent tackle can look malicious and a genuine player caught off balance is seen as a dive. On the last point, that's by no means an excuse from flagrant diving.

The difference between the 'better refs' in the 70's and 80's and the ones of today are nowhere near as bad as what some people believe. I remember when I first started going to football and back then the common chants were 'Who's the ******* in the black' or 'You don't know what your doing' That was week in week out up and down the country. So ref's got pelters then just like they do now.

What has changed is that the stakes in the game are much much higher and with that comes increased pressure on the ref. When you hear managers saying one bad decision could cost them a Champions League place or even a Premiership Survival, before a big game, it's got to play on their min8ds.

What has also changed is that FIFA have made the ref's almost un-approachable by either players or managers. They can and will make mistakes, they are human after all. Players no longer have a rapport with ref's like they used to.

What I think should happen is that there should be 4 linesmen, one for each line on the pitch and some basic technology to confirm if the ball had crossed the line.

Regardless of if Fergie was right or wrong about the refs fitness, I doubt Alan Wiley can keep up with a Ronaldo, Torres, VanPersie, Bellamy kind of player. That said Fergies comments were crass and deserved to be punished.

There has to be a responsibility on all parties to clean up there act. What worked really well was the moving a free kick 10 yards for dissent. If players like Rooney, Gerrard, Terry want to gob off then fine let them do it. But accept that or get penalised. Ref's who get it blatantly wrong should be struck off for a few weeks not just 'demoted' the the Championship. FIFA above anyone else should allow the ref's to manage the game and manage the players. Get tough on dissent, get tough on diving and the game would be a lot better.
 
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