Forza 4

[DreXeL]

GT5 has a better physics engine

I totally disagree. GT5 was a huge disappointment.

 

[Shimmyhill]

I totally disagree. GT5 was a huge disappointment.

Well you are wrong GT5 is a much better 'driving game' and while being flawed emulates actual car physics far better than F3.

 

[DreXeL]

Well you are wrong GT5 is a much better 'driving game' and while being flawed emulates actual car physics far better than F3.

No, I'm not 'wrong'. These things are subjective, but I've stated many times why I much prefer the feel of FM3's physics over GT5.

 

[Mr Latte]

Im totally immune now to girly faceslapping and the amount of it on this forum still yet is incredible.

However playing with a Pad - MS Wheel - Fanatec - T500RS all in a way change "XYZ Racing Games" handling, precision, control, interaction and of course not to forget general fun factor.

 

[Shimmyhill]

No, I'm not 'wrong'. These things are subjective, but I've stated many times why I much prefer the feel of FM3's physics over GT5.

Indeed, it was tongue in cheek anyway - people prefer the arcady handling on F3 over the sim-like-lite of GT5 and neither are 'better' subjectively but what always spoils F3 for me is useless braking model and what happens (or doesn't) when you put wheels on the grass.

 

[DreXeL]

Indeed, it was tongue in cheek anyway - people prefer the arcady handling on F3 over the sim-like-lite of GT5 and neither are 'better' subjectively but what always spoils F3 for me is useless braking model and what happens (or doesn't) when you put wheels on the grass.

I don't prefer FM3 because it's 'arcady', it just has the better physics model as far as I'm concerned. Without going into massive detail, for me FM3's physics feel more refined, they have more depth and feel more 'organic' than GT5. That said, it does feel like T10 have dumbed down the parameters of the cars, it's like the underlying physics engine is a bit 'neutered' by the parameters of the actual cars.

GT5 is the complete opposite, it feels like too much is being asked of the underlying physics engine, it's like the parameters of the cars have been 'tuned' to be as realistic as they can, but the underlying physics engine isn't complex enough to cope with what's being asked of it.

Like I've said before on here, FM3 feels like the physics are being calculated in real-time, whereas GT5 feels like the physics are being read from some kind of look-up table, they just seem to lack the finesse and depth of FM3's physics. That's just how it feels to me.

Neither come close to real sims on the PC, but of the two FM3 feels the best to me.

 

[Mr Latte]

Patchy with a chance of continued showers later...

 

[DreXeL]

I haven't got a clue what the hell those pictures are about Mr Latte, is it supposed to be funny or something?

 

[Liquiduk]

I hope this has the same play value as Forza 2, I Really enjoyed that game. Campaign.. Multiplayer, It had it all for me.

 

[Shimmyhill]

I don't prefer FM3 because it's 'arcady', it just has the better physics model as far as I'm concerned. Without going into massive detail, for me FM3's physics feel more refined, they have more depth and feel more 'organic' than GT5. That said, it does feel like T10 have dumbed down the parameters of the cars, it's like the underlying physics engine is a bit 'neutered' by the parameters of the actual cars.

GT5 is the complete opposite, it feels like too much is being asked of the underlying physics engine, it's like the parameters of the cars have been 'tuned' to be as realistic as they can, but the underlying physics engine isn't complex enough to cope with what's being asked of it.

Like I've said before on here, FM3 feels like the physics are being calculated in real-time, whereas GT5 feels like the physics are being read from some kind of look-up table, they just seem to lack the finesse and depth of FM3's physics. That's just how it feels to me.

Neither come close to real sims on the PC, but of the two FM3 feels the best to me.

Hmm, i feel the opposite - F3 has 'my first physics engine' and while it makes for a high end arcade style handling model it has no depth to it - things like trail braking do not work on it as the braking model is far to simple - you just hammer the brakes on as late as possible and no need to balance on the throttle as it doesnt unsettle the car - very point and squirt imo.

GT5 emulates a car under braking, mid corner, corner exit far better and need far more input and rewards you for being smooth with control inputs.

I find it very hard to 'lose' a car in F3 as it is very easy to go in to fast hold the subsequent mess and then power out of it - get it wrong in GT5 and the game punishes you far harder.

And grass, why does nothing or total slowing of car seem to be the only two consequences of going onto grass in F3? It certainly doesnt emulate the fact that you have wheels on different surfaces when wheels on track and grass.

I am sure we could both go on for days, i wish F3 was better as i dislike the PS3 and the only reason i have one (well 2 but thats a long story) is to play GT5.

Out of interest do you play them both on a wheel? I only ask as GT5 os pretty lame on pad and F3 has loads of pad assistance so hard to compare them unless on a wheel IMO

 

[DreXeL]

Indeed, it's all very subjective so there's really no point arguing over which is 'better'.

I have played both with wheels. FM3 with the official MS wheel, and GT5 with a Logitech Driving Force Pro. I must admit I haven't put huge amounts of time with the wheels though as I prefer to play on console with the pad, I just can't be arsed with the hassle of getting the wheels setup every time I want to play a racing game, so I only use the DFP on my PC for LFS etc, and I sold the MS wheel.

So yeah, it may well be down to the fact that I'm using a pad for them both. But using a pad, FM3 feels a hell of a lot better than GT5.

 

[Shimmyhill]

I agree, F3 is much better on a pad than GT5 is!

Back to F4, i hope they give more support to wheels - any news on a new MS wheel? The forza forums seem to constantly suggest a new one is coming out any day now...

 

[Demon]

I also agree with Drex,.

Although, I do like a lot about GT5, the obvious 'feel' of the cars is much more realistic in many ways then FM3, the grip levels, rotation etc are all what most people are going to immediately see in GT5, and PD did a great job in nailing that down.. and I can see why the initial reaction is to think GT5 is much better..

But, it's quite 'different' to FM3, and this is the issue..

As a hotlapper, driving cars/tracks back to back between the games, it's immediately obvious where they differ, You really need a wheel to 'feel' what is/isn't going on under the hood, I'm not talking about big FFB effects, but the actual nuances in grip and feeling the balance of the car.
In FM3, the moment you set off, you can feel the tyres squirming, the torque steer, and you can feel the effect of the tyres reaching peak grip and slip angles increasing, it's all fedback, and you have to manage it all to get maximum traction and corner speed.
In contrast, in GT5, all the big FFB is there, but in a FWD car, you turn the wheel, and there is no sense in what the tyres are doing, and more importantly, The car isn't reacting correctly, you can't generate seemingly realistic slip angles. It's this lack of minuet that is lost on a cursory glance with a controller, but you get the sense GT5 is modelling much less and is much less complex, the lack of all the nuanced feedback is quite apparant and leads to a real numb feeling.
The main tell tales to back this up are
- Wheelspinning off the line is very numb,
- Increasing slip angles through peak grip has little effect and no FFB
- Landing after a jump is wooden
- Interaction with other cars/kerbs is wooden
I also find that it trys to model some more advanced stuff, but find it all feeling far too pre-baked, like trail-braking and other things, it's so predictable and unrealistic at times that I'm sure it causes people to think it's the best sim ever, but for me, it's just too false to be anything other then contrived. If you've played v8 superstars, you'd get what I mean, the cars move around a lot, but it's all a bit 'canned', the car behaves almost identically despite the balance of it being different, some love that more edgy (but not dynamic) viscerality..


By contrast, in FM3, you really notice the high grip levels, the lack of ability to pendulate, and general less visceral overall feel, and I can see why people think it's dumbed down in comparison, but start doing some hotlapping, and you immediately notice you can feel a whole load more things affecting the car, and through the wheel.. In the right car you notice some really good stuff, lift off oversteer, and the bottom of the hill in Camino unsettling the car under braking, all reacting quite realistically, and allowing you to balance the car, it never feels pre-baked to me, and that's the difference.

In 'sim' terms, FM3 has the more complex engine by a mile (IMO), but lacks realistic parameters for the main items.
GT5 has a much less complex physics engine, but much more realistic parameters.

That's all IMO, I don't like hotlapping in GT5, it's just so unrewarding, and all about ignoring any nuance of control, and just blindly getting corner speeds 'correct' by trial and error, something I feed a bit tedious..

If FM4 just tweaked params, and fixed the minor issues, it'd be pretty amazing..

What's amazed me is that playing Race 07 and a few others lately, is that you can also see how FM3 does model easily as many things as the more mainstream PC sims, but again lacks the 'edge' that makes a car too challenging to drive..

[edit] Shimmy's post shows how personal these things can be, I clearly am almost totally polar in my opinion of the two, and that's fine, I can see lots of good aspect to both, it depends (especially on a wheel) what you gel with and notice, and what makes it challenging/rewarding to you.. I've even managed to enjoy playing some arcade games purely on the basis that even with out of this world physics, just maximising the car control under any physics engine can be fun at times..

 

[Shimmyhill]

I totally disagree!

I use the same wheel on both games, GT5 has issues with FFB on certain tracks but where it works it decimates the FFB on F3, its not even comparable on tracks like Suzuka where you can feel the wheels lifting over cambers and under braking where you can feel the weight shifting during trail braking - none of this happens in F3 but the track is wrong in F3 as is the braking realism so while you can probably set a faster time in the F3 version the GT5 version is much closer to real life tm.

For me F4 needs to sort out braking, physics engine and track accuracy - it can easily be better than GT5 but all three of those areas GT5 is ahead at the moment.

Not sure about the wheelspin off the line, i play with all aids off and clutch + H-shifter at times - F3 makes it impossible to do a good start of the line as you dont even get to set yourself up as it is too busy showing you the side of the car to let you worry about a silly thing like making a decent start

 

[Demon]

I totally disagree!

I use the same wheel on both games, GT5 has issues with FFB on certain tracks but where it works it decimates the FFB on F3, its not even comparable on tracks like Suzuka where you can feel the wheels lifting over cambers and under braking where you can feel the weight shifting during trail braking - none of this happens in F3 but the track is wrong in F3 as is the braking realism so while you can probably set a faster time in the F3 version the GT5 version is much closer to real life tm.

I also use the same wheel for both games.. but I can see from your description that you perceive physics differently to me, and that's OK... The very fact cars move around so much more in GT5 is exactly where I think it fails for me.. It's not dynamic enough, like it's calculating things quite simplistically, hence my V8 Superstars comment, the 'effect' of braking upsetting the balance is so OTT at times, and it's also amazingly consistent in how the effect is 'played out', despite being in a totally different dynamic state that just breaks the 'realism' barrier too much for me.

For me F4 needs to sort out braking, physics engine and track accuracy - it can easily be better than GT5 but all three of those areas GT5 is ahead at the moment.

I fear that T10 might pander too much to the 'must be really lively' to drive crowd, I would like a bit more, but not as far in some areas as GT5.
As an example,although a little false and extreme, the TG Lotus challenge is the prime example where you can see how unrealistic GT5 is to real life, they've clearly tweaked some params on that challenge, the car under braking is ludicrously broken, and I hate that OTT falseness, obviously it's dialled down if you just hotlap that car/track, but it's still not realistic to me.. I've driven many cars around tracks and the roads, and if any where so easily upset or 'loose' as they are, I'd seriously worried..

Not sure about the wheelspin off the line, i play with all aids off and clutch + H-shifter at times - F3 makes it impossible to do a good start of the line as you dont even get to set yourself up as it is too busy showing you the side of the car to let you worry about a silly thing like making a decent start

I also play with all aids off , but again, we are clearly looking at things very very different angles, the difference is night and day, but that's OK, two different 'approaches', ultimately what anyone prefers as a whole is not remotely black/white..



I always think that at a high level, GT5 is much more 'realistic', but at a low level, it's lacking much, and FM3 is pretty much the opposite.. I suspect that T10 will aim towards more 'realistic' feeling at a high level, and that will suit all parties, so hopefully they do go a little in this direction.. just tempering that with still pandering to people like me who love all the 'nuances', the things that don't throw the car around, but are still hugely rewarding to me..

 

[Mr Latte]

I will say GT5 with the T500 wheel is a different game than it is on the DF-GT or a G27. Even the GT2 or PWTS doesnt give the same feedback in your hands of what is happening with the cars physics. Within 10 seconds of using the wheel the smoothness and precision it has is detectable.

Im not bigging it as I bought one from this very company but just read any T500 thread and most owners will likely have the same experience. While its still not on the level of proper PC sims its not that far off neither in its detailing and feel of weight distrubution and suspension movement. Now thats according to some peoples views on GTP.

For me personally, I couldnt really care to put into detail what is more realistic as Im no racing driver, physics expert, or tyre guru. What matters to me as a gamer is getting a sense of control and being able to detect when grip is and isnt happening.

Mix that with a degree of precision required in steering corrections to have a difficulty that is not easy but can be mastered with sufficent playing.

Handling is very much a varied thing too, depending on the car used and the settings. Tyres make a massive difference particulary in GT5. Who else finds that the "Racing Tyre" has perhaps too much grip similar to how FM has always felt more planted and less nervous. Yet standard tyres can have terrible understeer characteristics and lack of grip made worse with a lack of speed sensation easily overdriving the car when cornering.

Getting back to FM4
Five things Id love to see to really enchance it and yes more than likely most wont happen.

• Refined Physics but importantly more advanced tyrewear and make weight a bigger factor of handling even incorporate reduced fuel.
• Better performance matching in tuning various cars and 2WD/4WD.
• More challenging AI than most other racing games tend to have.
• More user control over wheel settings, like PC's.
• Personal FOV and camera angles that can be saved per car or make it easy to adjust during ingame.

 

[Vonhelmet]

I'd like more granular AI. I'm not great at FM3, but I always spanking medium and invariably lose to hard unless I overcompensate on the PI front which feels cheap.

 

[Shimmyhill]

interesting stuf

Have you played NFS: Shift2?

I am just getting into it and that has amazing amounts of car movement, far more than GT5 and peeps are saying its the most 'real race experience' alike of all of the console racers.

Having done a fair bit of track time i find GT5 is much nearer what its like than F3 - i found to start on track it was very hard to be doing all the inputs and getting gears right all at the same time - certainly far more to do than there is in F3 where you hammer down straights, get the car slowed down, clip the apex (or not) and power out.

It's odd as i feel the way about F3 that you do about GT5 - for me F3 is all about finding the braking point and hitting it every time whereas GT5 is all about being on the right line, braking how you want (i'm a trail brake man) balancing the car on the throttle and correcting it as needed before you even get to the apex.

It is why i find F3 'easy' and possibly a little dull. I must prefer to be on the edge in my racing games is all i guess!

I still love F3 but GT5 for me feels more 'alive' and i prefer the selection of cars and tracks - oddly i am not a huge fan of the AI in either game - they just get in the way really!

 

[FeFiDoh]

G27 doesn't work on 360 does it? pretty much counts me out of racing games on consoles now.

 

[adam cool dude]

GT5 better physics model than F3? I have heard it all now.

The only thing flawed with F3 was the multiplayer. They can fix that in F4 and I will be one happy bunny. There also needs to be more penalty for using 4wd.