Freeview HD reception

Soldato
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Finchley, London
Nothing important just thought I'd post about it. I'll be buying a new TV soon with freeview HD built in which is obviously standard these days. Meanwhile, I still use a freeview HD box with my old Samsung TV. I used to get over a dozen HD channels but in the last few weeks most have disappeared and I only have BBC1 HD, BBC2 HD, ITV HD, C4 HD, C5 HD and CBBC HD. So thinking it might be my old box losing it's functionality, I bought another new HD box yesterday, a Manhattan T1 Zapper. Very nice, only £35, nice interface and absolutely tiny, only slightly bigger than my hand. My previous box is an old Tesco Technika which still works but always rebooting itself or not responding to button presses.

The new box is also only finding the 6 HD channels. So I called freeview helpine and they told me they'd made some changes recently at Crystal Palace where my TV is transmitted from. Fortunately they told me I'm eligible for free home support and they're sending an engineer on Monday to adjust or even replace the roof aerial at no cost to me. So I'll get all my HD channels. :)
 
Great that they are coming round to fix it for free, didn't know they did that.

Absolutely. I didn't know about the freeview home support service before yesterday.

At first they said it wouldn't be free since it's a shared aerial and they don't touch communal aerials. But then I was asked how many flats there are in my house using it, and I said it's just a house split into two flats and I own one of them. I was then told that's fine as it's less than four flats.
 
I'm bringing this thread up again because I'm now getting no signal at all. When the freeview engineer came last year, he replaced the roof aerial and installed a booster. He also installed a power supply box next to the tv with the aerial from the roof going into it and a cable from the box to my tv. Reception has been perfect for the last year but today it's completely gone.




The green light is going off, yet when I disconnect the aerial cable on the left that says 'IN' the light comes on. So it's on with no cable and off with the cable. I've no idea what's going on other than thinking something is broken on the roof? Thing is, given that they did this under the free home support, am I entitled to get them back to fix it without having to pay?

I can't bypass the box and connect the aerial direct to my freeview box or tv because there's a screw thread type connector on it rather than a standard push on connector.
 
Stupid question, have you tried retuning? I know before they were changing frequencies, but i think their is some more changes being done.
 
I wonder if water has got into the cable and it is shorting things out? there's been lots of heavy rain lately. It's strange that it should light up as soon as you remove the cable but then go off with it plugged in. I don't know how it was installed at the aerial but those screw on F connectors aren't very waterproof.

If you want to bypass the booster to test you could use one of these:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/F-Type-Screw-Connector-Socket-to-RF-Aerial-Male-Adapter/264359398409
 
I install aerials as part of my business. What is being described is down to a short somewhere the cable / masthead amp / aerial.

Bypassing the power supply and connecting the aerial directly to the TV isn't going to work. The reason is the power supply is sending a voltage up the cable to make the masthead amp work. Without that voltage the amp won't pass a signal at all.

The support for Freeview is because of all the buggering about with frequencies to clear space for 4G and 5G transmissions. In some parts of the country the changes are so significant that anyone in a marginal area with an existing aerial designed for the old frequency spread won't get all the core channels without new hardware.

The money to supply new aerials is coming from a fund set aside out of the profits from selling off the 800MHz band for 4G. It covers the aerial and any amplification, but I am not sure if it includes cabling.

Did the installer change your cabling when the new aerial was installed?

Coax cable doesn't last forever. The old brown coax installed pre-digital is reasonably robust. It just doesn't have the double shielding braid+foil combo now required to keep interference at bay. I've been to installs where the old coax has been up for 20-30 years and still works. Other times I have found parts worn away from rubbing against the slates in the wind, or the jacket has gone brittle and cracked due to sunlight UV damage.

More often though I find cable faults with newer installs using cheap crappy RG6 coax. It just doesn't last as well as the pre-digital stuff or good post-digital cable such as Webro WF100. The jacket splits too easily, and, because it uses aluminium rather than copper for the braid shield, once water gets in it oxidises the metal which turns to powder. Copper braid doesn't do that. I've had jobs where the copper aerial cable has been dripping from water inside but still worked fine.

More likely though is a fault with the masthead amplifier.

The common killer is too much power. This happens when a TV or Freeview box has the option of "aerial power" or similar wording. It means that the TV or box can do the job of the power supply. Putting two lots of power up the coax cable will kill the aerial amp.

Check out your TV and box to make sure that any option to send power out from the aerial connection is switched off..

The other possibility is that water has got in to the amp because the box enclosing it hasn't been closed properly.

Give the Freeview help line a call. Explain that you think the masthead amp has died. Since this was installed as part of the aerial change less than a year-and-a-half ago then I would hope they would stand by their original work.
 
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Thanks for the replies guys.
lucid, thanks for the detailed explanation as an aerial professional, much appreciated.

As it happens, I left the box disconnected overnight and just now plugged it in again. The light is staying on now with the cable connected. Picture and sound has returned. At first it was freezing for a few seconds but is solid now.

Doesn't seem to have been extra aerial power being sent as my freeview box menu shows 5V Antenna Power as off.



Also, last night I connected the Wolsey power supply box direct to my tv without going through my freeview box and still had no signal.

It does sound like water might have been the culprit or some (hopefully temporary) fault with the masthead amp.
If it happens again, I'll take your advice and call the freeview help, or in fact, I believe it's a company called SCCI that installed it.
 
lucid, I've still been having the same issues. It keeps going off for hours then will randomly work again. It's off again this evening. Last night I fiddled with the aerial connector going into the box and it started working but today I can't get it to work. Kind of hard to know if it's a problem at the power supply end or on the roof.

I called the aerial company who did the work and they said I have to call freeview first. I called freeview who said they have a 90 day warranty so I'm on my own now. And the aerial company is a contractor who don't take jobs directly. Shouldn't a contractor still have some sort of 1 or 2 year warranty for the work they do? It's a bit crap because in some ways I'm worse off now than before the work was done. I was missing 4 HD channels before the work, but at least I never lost complete tv signal.

I'll have to go to a local aerial shop tomorrow. Any idea how much they're likely to charge?
 
Stupid question, have you tried retuning?
you have made sure that letting it auto retune, or better, checking what channels your regions muxes are on, and dialling that in does not refind them ?
an aunt was done over by an aeriel installer when just a retune was required .... we complained to the industry 'licensing' body

I would check/change the 'push' connector cable going from the tv, I have had a pre-molded one fail;
also redo/check the screw-thread ones, to make sure the inner conductor is making good contacts and is untarnished ... I've soldered most that i have.
 
What sort of signal strength/quality do you get in the Freeview Tuner menu when it's working? does it tend to go off after rainy weather? have you checked the connector at the aerial? if the box is going off then it's either faulty or shutting off due to a short/loss of connection.
 
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It's worth noting that if you are on Crystal Palace and have been using a Group A aerial (channels 21-37) then two of the muxes (com7 and com8) have been moved out to channels 55 and 56 as "national channels". A Group A aerial just won't pick these up. You will need to get a wideband aerial.

Also a lot of TV or Freeview receivers will ask for the region you are in at the initial setup and not bother scanning outside that area. You will either have to manually scan channels 55 and 56, or do a "full" rather than a "fast" scan when retuning. Some TVs that don't offer those kinds of tuning options, you may have to do a factory reset and then do a full tune when it resets and doesn't have a region saved.

The Freeview people have been recommending wideband aerials for a few years now, even though Group A is correct for Crystal Palace, and it's only a problem in the last 12/18 months because they've taken muxes out of Group A and put them elsewhere in order to sell off some more of the frequency for 4G. Last month they moved some more stuff around, and a Group A aerial then wouldn't have been able to pick up quite a few channels, including things like BBC4 HD and BBC News HD.
 
@Merlin5 , I was just about to post a lot of the same suggestions that @jpaul mentioned. Cover the basics that you can get at easily.

The warranty question is difficult because the circumstances are unusual. The reason why the support is free-of-cost to you is because the Government is making a bundle selling off chunks of the TV bands for mobile phone use. But at the same time the'y're having to fork out for all the work behind the scenes to get the TV transmissions for a whole country to mesh without clashing in a much-reduced transmission space, and also to fix reception issues that this work creates for some people in marginal areas.

It's very likely then that the Government through the national transmitter company Arqiva would seek to limit its exposure to ongoing claims. They'd also want to provide the service for the lowest cost, and so something has to give. It's the warranty.

I've no idea how much aerial fitters in your neck of the woods might charge. Some offer a complete service with transparent pricing and using high quality materials with a long warranty support, but it costs more. That's where I stand. Personally I think it's good value for the customer to know that their installation is done to a high standard with parts that have an extended warranty from the installer lasting a total of five years. There are no price hikes during the job, and if something does fail (which can happen) then it's put right at no cost to them.

There are other installers who go the cheap route. There's the minimum of warranty that covers a basic 12 months, and although they quote a low price, it's often accompanied by the bump-ups where some or other 'problem' is discovered which they can fix but it wasn't in the original price. There are some national firms that train their installers how to do this. What they're relying on is that the householder will feel obliged to agree to extras once the job is underway.

A good indicator of the whether an installer is genuine or not is the quality of the cable they use. The decent guys use Webro WF100 or Triax TX100 or Philex/Nexans PF100. The rough-arses use RG6.

I'll tell you straight now, on day one of the installation there's very little performance difference for an average aerial installation. It's slightly more lossy, but at a cable run of under 20m there's not a lot in it. Physically though, the difference start to stack up. The centre core is steel with an anodised outer-coat of copper instead of pure copper. Steel rusts, copper doesn't. But that isn't the biggest problem.

On the outside the jacket is looser and, from the installs I've been called to put right, it goes brittle and cracks way sooner than good coax. Being loose also means that the inner and core slide about and sometimes move enough that the connection at a socket is broken. [Does that sound familiar?] The other big problem, especially with RG6 coax carrying power, is that the interference shield is made from Mylar (a metalised plastic not unlike crisp packets) and aluminium. As soon as there's a crack in the outer sheath and water gets in it reacts with the aluminium which starts to degrade to powder. This is accelerated in the presence of a voltage which speeds up oxidisation. The braid is required as part of the voltage-carrying electrical connection along with the core. If one or other corrodes through then all signal from any masthead amp will be lost. Where the braid is thinning then electrical resistance increases. Too much resistance will stop a masthead amp working.
 
Thanks for the help jpaul, mmj, steampunk and lucid and sorry for the late reply.
It came back on again yesterday evening after several hours of 'no signal'. I checked it again this morning and it was still working and have just turned the tv on again now and still working. But it'll undoubtedly go down again at some point.

When it's working, system info shows me signal strength and signal quality are always a solid 100%. It also says region is Greater London. I'm not absolutely sure if it's rain that affects it or not, I'll have to monitor that.

The connector at the aerial, i.e, the screw thread going into the Wolsey power supply box is screwed in properly, seems solid enough. When I get no signal and the light is off, the light always comes on and stays on when I disconnect the aerial connector from the Wolsey box.

When the signal came back yesterday, I did a factory reset and retuned. I'm not convinced though that the retuning will stop the signal from disappearing again but we'll see.

If the signal goes again, I'll have a go at rewiring the screw thread connector and I'll take some photos to show you of the inner conductor and the hole on the wolsey box so you can see if you think there's anything that looks bad.
 
It sounds like an electrical issue/short if the light comes on with the cable removed and goes off with it in, I'd check the connector at the actual aerial.
 
Retuning won't do anything. That's like trying to fix a slow puncture in a car tyre by tuning the radio. :D

Losing the power light is the key to what's going on.

Incidentally, 100% signal quality is good, but 100% signal strength isn't always so good. I know that might not make a lot of sense, so I'll try to explain why.

Quality is the measure of the gap between signal level and background noise. The bigger that gap the better. Noise manifests as errors in the data stream that makes up a digital TV signal. Quality comes from one place only; the aerial. Everything else that happens in the system from connectors and cabling and amplification and/or passive splitting has the potential to reduce the gap. Passive features such as connectors and well-shielded-splitters and cable don't add noise, they just reduce the signal and noise amplitude equally. Powered amplification and poorly-shielded cable will add noise.

The curious thing about digital signals for TV is that too much powered amplification will saturate the tuner and create an effect very-much like there's too much noise in the signal. It can cause pixellation and even total picture loss. This isn't causing your problems. That's related to something else. But if you're getting an installer to come in, have them check the signal levels at the end of the aerial coax going to the TV while they're there. It may be that you can still get 100% quality without the need for so much amplification.

Coming back to your issues, you could have a dicky power supply or a short in the cable somewhere or a faulty masthead amp. Problems such as these, even intermittent ones, never fix themselves. They may go away for short periods, but sooner or later the system will fall over completely.
 
Retuning won't do anything. That's like trying to fix a slow puncture in a car tyre by tuning the radio. :D

Lol, good analogy. :D


Well as expected, it went off again. Was still working this morning, and was on this afternoon briefly. I left the room for a while, came back in and the light had gone off. Also, no rain here today that I'm aware off, so doesn't seem to be that affecting it.

I've done a short video, don't know if it will help pinpoint anything.

 
What's the brown liquid? if it's shorting the core with the braid then you'll have problems. I know sometimes installers use grease for water protection but this is an indoor connector right?

Looking at the dielectric it's air filled so it would be easy for water to run down the inside of the cable.
 
What's the brown liquid? if it's shorting the core with the braid then you'll have problems. I know sometimes installers use grease for water protection but this is an indoor connector right?

Looking at the dielectric it's air filled so it would be easy for water to run down the inside of the cable.

Good observation as I hadn't noticed a liquid. Yes the connector I show the inside of is the indoor connector on the cable that runs to the roof. Is that actually a liquid inside it then? I must admit I haven't touched inside it yet to see if it's wet. Do you think I should get some tissue and run it around the inside of the connector?
 
It looks like dirty water to me but like I said sometimes installers will use a grease, either way though if the core shorts with the braid you'll have problems. The dielectric (plastic around the core) is air filled in that cable so once water gets in it can run down inside the cable like it's a pipe. I'd try cleaning it up.

What does the inside of the other cable look like?
 
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