French gamers might be able to sell on Steam games soon.

Malevolence · 19 Sep 2019 at 18:02

High court in Paris as found in favour of the decision that people who buy digital cnnent on Steam should be able to sell it on. Valve will no doubt appeal the decision, but knowing how stubborn the Frenchies are it may do no good. Also, If this does become law in France how would it affect other paid for digital media like Origin, UPlay, Blizzard, Epic, iTunes, Google etc. etc.?

https://www.nextinpact.com/news/108...sacre-vente-doccasion-jeux-dematerialises.htm

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/09/19/steam-should-let-users-resell-games-french-court-rules/

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/d6biyl/the_high_court_of_paris_just_ruled_steams_game/

It also highlights a few other things that may be changed too.

The court agreed with UFC Que Choisir, they say, that Steam’s terms claim a number of other rights Valve legally could not have. Valve should not keep Steam Wallet funds when users leave the platform, and should reimburse them if requested. Valve should accept responsibility when users are harmed by Steam or something from it, even if it’s marked as beta. Valve cannot claim so many rights to exploit mods and other content uploaded by users. And the ways players can lose access for poor conduct are not sufficiently clear, Next Inpact add.

The 'Player behaviour' one is quite interesting. Does that mean VAC bans will become illegal in France if an appeal is lost?

AHarvey · 19 Sep 2019 at 18:56

They'll just add some T&C's where they get X% of the sell on value for selling via their platform and the admin involved in moving something from one account to another, it won't be worth the hassle for the users.

ic1male · 19 Sep 2019 at 19:09

I hope they let you sell games for free as well. I’ve got multiple Steam accounts which I’d like to merge which is impossible at this moment.

NZXT30 · 19 Sep 2019 at 20:01

ic1male said:
I hope they let you sell games for free as well. I’ve got multiple Steam accounts which I’d like to merge which is impossible at this moment.

That would be great. I would like to pass on some games I would never play again bit I doubt they'll let it happen.

Moothead2 · 19 Sep 2019 at 20:27

Without trying to sound like a Valve shill, I don't really see why people should be allowed to sell on software licences. There's absolutely no reason to buy from official distributors if you can pick it up from someone else for half the price as there's no difference between a copy bought from Steam and a copy bought from your mate Jim. It'll definitely have a big impact on smaller devs and I can see it exacerbating the whole buying store exclusivity problem as no one is going to want to sell on a platform where they're likely to lose a lot of later life sales.

FredFlint · 19 Sep 2019 at 20:45

Games will not be sold anymore if this goes wide, they will be added to subscriptions like game pass, Uplay+... Publisher's are already pushing this as it would mean they don't have to support games as long, they can just remove them just like Netflix does and nothing can be done.

spoffle · 19 Sep 2019 at 20:50

Moothead2 said:
Without trying to sound like a Valve shill, I don't really see why people should be allowed to sell on software licences. There's absolutely no reason to buy from official distributors if you can pick it up from someone else for half the price as there's no difference between a copy bought from Steam and a copy bought from your mate Jim. It'll definitely have a big impact on smaller devs and I can see it exacerbating the whole buying store exclusivity problem as no one is going to want to sell on a platform where they're likely to lose a lot of later life sales.

Because only one account at a time can access it. It’s really not gonna do anything appreciable to the gaming industry. Most people probably won’t sell their games on. But the way they’re wording it is that Valve can’t say that you don’t own the license to a game while holding other contradictory opinions on things.

It also seems to be that they should be made to substantiate VAC bans instead of just consistently insisting that their say is final. There have been plenty of false positives where Valve just isn’t willing to engage with the customer, and that is wrong.

Moothead2 · 19 Sep 2019 at 21:13

spoffle said:
Because only one account at a time can access it. It’s really not gonna do anything appreciable to the gaming industry. Most people probably won’t sell their games on.

Gamestop and the like ran for decades on the sale of used games, it's a huge part of the market. The reasons they're failing now are online stores selling their games cheaper and individuals selling their used games online. The "used" Steam market will be absolutely flooded.

Impy77 · 19 Sep 2019 at 21:59

Moothead2 said:
Without trying to sound like a Valve shill, I don't really see why people should be allowed to sell on software licences. There's absolutely no reason to buy from official distributors if you can pick it up from someone else for half the price as there's no difference between a copy bought from Steam and a copy bought from your mate Jim. It'll definitely have a big impact on smaller devs and I can see it exacerbating the whole buying store exclusivity problem as no one is going to want to sell on a platform where they're likely to lose a lot of later life sales.

Because GenericConsoleGamer can buy their £50 single player game and complete it in two weeks, and then resell/trade for £30 - cost to them £20. PC Gamer shops around gets game for £40. Completes it in two weeks and resells/trades for zero because we can't trade - cost to us £40... Hence the second hand market for console games and not for PC games.

This legal action really has more to do with consoles though than PC games. PC gamers have been stuck like this for ages with no resell value on games. But when the next gen of console go diskless then this would essentially force a second hand market on those consoles as well as steam. (this will never happen BTW)

Whether fair on devs or not, as you point out may be another argument. I think the ruling will end up that cd keys get tied to the account with no resell value. Sony and microsoft will take flak for no disk options and no second hand market when they launch their new consoles, but will do it anyway. In fact Microsoft wanted the Xbox One to be diskless and only player outcry stopped this a few years ago. Now with digital licenses being the norm diskless will be the way it goes and both PC and console with have no second hand market anymore.

Anyway I'm rambling on and I need to price up all my CD and Cassette singles to sell on a car boot sale at the weekend (so sod you spotify/amzn music etc -I am reselling my music!)

HaloUK · 20 Sep 2019 at 11:07

I remember back in the day, I would say mid 90's, our high street had a games shop and they would have a section of pre-owned PC games for sale. It was in that shop I purchased my very first two PC games even before getting my PC. Quake 2 and The Settlers 2. This was before Steam was ever thought of.

willhub · 20 Sep 2019 at 12:25

HaloUK said:
I remember back in the day, I would say mid 90's, our high street had a games shop and they would have a section of pre-owned PC games for sale. It was in that shop I purchased my very first two PC games even before getting my PC. Quake 2 and The Settlers 2. This was before Steam was ever thought of.

Can't remember the name of the shop but I got RCT2 expansions from it.

bobboberts · 20 Sep 2019 at 14:54

Interesting times if this goes against Valve (and any other platform).

McPhee · 20 Sep 2019 at 15:20

Moothead2 said:
Without trying to sound like a Valve shill, I don't really see why people should be allowed to sell on software licences. There's absolutely no reason to buy from official distributors if you can pick it up from someone else for half the price as there's no difference between a copy bought from Steam and a copy bought from your mate Jim. It'll definitely have a big impact on smaller devs and I can see it exacerbating the whole buying store exclusivity problem as no one is going to want to sell on a platform where they're likely to lose a lot of later life sales.

Back in 2012, the ECJ ruled that consumers aren't buying licenses. They're buying products. That's the basis for this case; if you own the game, rather than license it, then it is surely yours to sell as you wish?

This case will no doubt drag on for a long time though. Valve are going to appeal. Then if/when they lose the appeal, they may implement an integrated resale system with heavy fees. But then that system will be challenged in court, as it could be argued that people should have the right to sell products that they own wherever they wish (i.e. license keys should be reissued).

dragonslayer · 20 Sep 2019 at 17:17

Honestly I think we should be allowed to sell them I don't see why not it won't hurt the industry anymore than console games that get resold maybe even add it so you can trade them into stores like game etc for in store credit/ cash in hand

Panos · 20 Sep 2019 at 18:02

Moothead2 said:
Without trying to sound like a Valve shill, I don't really see why people should be allowed to sell on software licences. There's absolutely no reason to buy from official distributors if you can pick it up from someone else for half the price as there's no difference between a copy bought from Steam and a copy bought from your mate Jim. It'll definitely have a big impact on smaller devs and I can see it exacerbating the whole buying store exclusivity problem as no one is going to want to sell on a platform where they're likely to lose a lot of later life sales.

Valves argument at the courts is that consumers do not buy licence for X game to play but subscription for the lifetime of the game.
However T&C of eg Paradox (which is using Steam), you buy licence not subscription for the games & DLCs. So according to PDX i can sell my DLCs & games but according to Steam I cannot.

Same applies to other companies. Lets look at games like Skyrim (last physical game bought). I bought this from physical shop also, at Spalding.
T&C refers to licence for the game not subscription. Yet because the game needs Steam and cannot do without it and cannot resell the game and it's licence because of Valve.

Valve here is the main culprit for donkey years and this needs to change. The French will push it down the throat of Valve, and that would snowball across the EU, par UK since it will be out of the EU in a months time.

HaloUK said:
I remember back in the day, I would say mid 90's, our high street had a games shop and they would have a section of pre-owned PC games for sale. It was in that shop I purchased my very first two PC games even before getting my PC. Quake 2 and The Settlers 2. This was before Steam was ever thought of.

They still do exist but more to trade console games not PC games, because of Steam taking over the last decade.

Rofflay · 20 Sep 2019 at 18:27

Panos said:
The French will push it down the throat of Valve, and that would snowball across the EU, par UK since it will be out of the EU in a months time.

I like this change of law you do not need to be part of a 6 world bloc (America Southamerica Russia China Africa Europe) just to take a law from someone else infact i prefer not being part of any bloc and taking the best from each and throwing out the worst.

I like the EU food laws too over the American wild west versions so i hope this happens if i buy a product it is mine, I demand the right to sell it like any other product if not then it should be classed as a lifetime rental not a game. To think as well it took the French this long to lob off the head of valve.

arc@css · 20 Sep 2019 at 23:38

I can't see it happening anytime soon but it would be fantastic. I think eventually, we may see something along those lines come into operation.

dragonslayer · 22 Sep 2019 at 14:02

Wrong post

bobboberts · 23 Sep 2019 at 07:01

I wonder what impact it would have on new game sales, especially because I imagine pricing would be set by the seller. Would it have to go through valve or would we see new marketplaces crop up to cater for it?

Amnesia · 23 Sep 2019 at 09:31

Would valve really lose anything though?
Say i buy a game £50.
1 week later i decide to sell it as i dont get along with it.
I sell it for £40 and after Gabens cut im left with about £33(or less)but its in my steam wallet.

What can i do with steam wallet money but buy more games from steam?