French woman SA'd 92 times by 72 men

I think this happening, and similar, are down to the increasing objectification of society, mixed with overcompensating male insecurity.

I think as a man you have to have pretty low opinion of yourself to take part in this.

This, from a male participant perspective is lower down on the same scale of that gangbang that happened. Though that wasn't illegal if any future female partner finds out the way they think about the guy will change. They dehumanised themselves.
 
I was watching a bit on the BBC news channel about it earlier and it sounds like the husband may have done something similar with his adult daughter :( and was involved in other sex crimes (an attempted kidnapping/rape 20 years ago he's admitted to) and IIRC if I heard it correctly potentially a murder that had a lot of similarities to the attempted one he's admitted to and they're also looking into other cases with a similar MO.

There was something about there being a picture of his daughter in bed with a man, and she was wearing underwear she didn't recognise, nor did she recognise the man :(

So there could be more charges for him coming up if that is the case.

Unfortunately I don't think this sort of thing is that new, it's just that this one made headlines because of how it was organised/the scale of it and the fact the police found out about it by accident.
If he hadn't been upskirting they wouldn't have arrested him, which meant they wouldn't have had a reason to look at his hard drive for pictures, which would have meant they didn't find out about the drugging and raping of his wife.

Whoever spotted the initial upskirt did society an absolutely massive service, as did the woman who he was taking the photos of who was willing and able to put in the complaint that started the investigation.
 
That has been one of the most shocking stories I have heard about for a long time. I think the bit that really gets me is the amount of time it went on for.
 
I think a lot of this stems from user generated opportunist content online. The volume of it makes it seem normal to someone who already has a distorted view of society and women.

I think if websites hosting that kind of thing are shut down then the proliferation will drop significantly and it will gradually drop out of most people's mind.
 
BBC journalism seems up there with the Sun, full of memes .. it's become like tavistock.

author Louise Chunn
Founder of therapist-matching platform Welldoing and former Editor of Psychologies magazine

Andre de Trichateau, a therapist based in South Kensington, London, brought up the appeal of masculinist influencers such as Andrew Tate, a self-proclaimed "misogynist", who has 10.4 million followers on X.

Mr de Trichateau says that he has encountered men feeling demeaned and displaced by the rise of feminism. "Some men don't know who to be," he says. "Men are socialised to be dominant but also expected to be in touch with their emotions, able to show vulnerability.

"This confusion can lead to anger, directed to the feminist movement, and [in turn this can lead them to] people such as Tate."

With a 60% male client base, Mr de Trichateau observes that "men can be socialised to view power and dominance as part of their identity".

"This is not to justify anything like the Pelicot case," he continues, "but objectively I can see that such behaviour is an escape from powerlessness and inadequacy. It's tantalising and forbidden.

and what qualifications do therapists need?

----------------

had been looking to scan this serious objective document mentionedf in LeMonde today https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/ar...judges-justified-their-verdict_6736376_7.html
The highly detailed document explaining the reasoning behind the criminal court's ruling in the Pelicot rape case, handed down in the southern city of Avignon, on Thursday, December 19, offers a deep dive into the judges' three days of deliberation. As such, it is essential reading. More than ever, it legitimizes criminal courts' obligation, under French law, to provide the reasons for their decisions.
 
I think the thing that shocks me the most about this is not so much that it happened, but that so many men apparently found this acceptable to take part in.
It's probably true that more men than I'd like to believe would either want to do something like this, or could be convinced it was OK on the day by a woman's husband, but it is still rare that it actually happens.
I think a lot of this stems from user generated opportunist content online. The volume of it makes it seem normal to someone who already has a distorted view of society and women.
I think if websites hosting that kind of thing are shut down then the proliferation will drop significantly and it will gradually drop out of most people's mind.
It's a common fantasy, for both men and women, probably on par with the gangbang one of individual servicing/being serviced by multiple partners.
It's been around in adult novels and 'professional' porn long before the internet and amateurs...

The problem is that the porn side taps into the fantasy and portrays it as more obtainable than the average fantasist would realistically find. Until fairly recently, the best you could hope for was a dinner party where the men all put their car keys in a bowl after dessert.
I don't think the porn side is an especially recent issue, though. The only thing the Internet has done is facilitate the wider group of offenders being able to discover and liaise with each other more easily, as it has done with child porn.
 
It's a common fantasy, for both men and women, probably on par with the gangbang one of individual servicing/being serviced by multiple partners.
It's been around in adult novels and 'professional' porn long before the internet and amateurs...

The problem is that the porn side taps into the fantasy and portrays it as more obtainable than the average fantasist would realistically find. Until fairly recently, the best you could hope for was a dinner party where the men all put their car keys in a bowl after dessert.
I don't think the porn side is an especially recent issue, though. The only thing the Internet has done is facilitate the wider group of offenders being able to discover and liaise with each other more easily, as it has done with child porn.

This is the one HUGE danger with porn. Unfortunately there are some people who just don't or can't realise that fantasy is not the same as reality and the one must never cross over to the other.
 
It's a common fantasy, for both men and women, probably on par with the gangbang one of individual servicing/being serviced by multiple partners.
It's been around in adult novels and 'professional' porn long before the internet and amateurs...

The problem is that the porn side taps into the fantasy and portrays it as more obtainable than the average fantasist would realistically find. Until fairly recently, the best you could hope for was a dinner party where the men all put their car keys in a bowl after dessert.
I don't think the porn side is an especially recent issue, though. The only thing the Internet has done is facilitate the wider group of offenders being able to discover and liaise with each other more easily, as it has done with child porn.
Child porn??

I think it would be better to call it for what it is and that is childhood sexual abuse.
 
It's a common fantasy, for both men and women, probably on par with the gangbang one of individual servicing/being serviced by multiple partners.
It's been around in adult novels and 'professional' porn long before the internet and amateurs...

The problem is that the porn side taps into the fantasy and portrays it as more obtainable than the average fantasist would realistically find. Until fairly recently, the best you could hope for was a dinner party where the men all put their car keys in a bowl after dessert.
I don't think the porn side is an especially recent issue, though. The only thing the Internet has done is facilitate the wider group of offenders being able to discover and liaise with each other more easily, as it has done with child porn.
I agree there are fantasises that have been around for at least decades. But I think we have to acknowledge porn itself as changed.

Porn or adult erotica were more like fully budgetted films, with a cast and a storyline. I'd say they were more close to real life.

I think the difference is porn/sex as become dehumanised. Many people don't see the human side of other people. So it's not difficult to understand how thr French woman or the gangbang girl were objectified. A disturbing trend I've noticed is some women objectify themselves ie using male language to describe themselves.

In my opinion two things happened to degrade porn, and influence how many people think about the sex.

Gonzo style porn. Which removed 90% of the empathy of sex. No scene build up. Just sex, and often rough.

Kinks becoming normalised. A kink means something odd, unusual. But for some reason in the early 00's kinks were suddenly accepted as part of the regular sexual activities. I could list a few activities. But the main one I never understood why it suddenly became accepted was bdsm. Maybe it just went hand in hand with the lack of empathy and objectification.

I worry about where society is going with this dehumanisation, objectification, and a lack of empathy. It's seeped into every aspect of life. Many people talk at other people not to them.

I sadly think more of the op subject will happen. Because it feels like more deviant activities are becoming normalised.
 
I'm sure the same thing was thought back until very recently surrounding homosexuality... Some people still think its a "deviant activity" today
I think that depends if people consider homosexuality natural. I do, especially when it also happens in the animal kingdom.

Strangling, being tied up, and beaten etc I'd consider kinks. I'm not saying these things are wrong or bad between consenting adults. But they are a manifestation of someones dark mind.
 
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This is the one HUGE danger with porn. Unfortunately there are some people who just don't or can't realise that fantasy is not the same as reality and the one must never cross over to the other.
The line between fantasy and reality is very fine, though and entirely down to the participants' consent. Roleplay has been a thing in such matters for centuries. All porn has done in this regard is allow the majority of people to feel less ashamed of their kinks and fetishes.

Child porn??
I think it would be better to call it for what it is and that is childhood sexual abuse.
I'm referring more to individuals such as those in this particular case, convicted specifically of possessing indecent images of children, generally considered a lesser charge but also with the greater number of offenders, compared to those who actually create the images.
Creators tend to avoid the Internet directly, to evade traces, whereas the distribution network has grown massively - Hence the comparison in this context.

I agree there are fantasises that have been around for at least decades. But I think we have to acknowledge porn itself as changed.
Porn or adult erotica were more like fully budgetted films, with a cast and a storyline. I'd say they were more close to real life.
I think the difference is porn/sex as become dehumanised. Many people don't see the human side of other people.
I disagree...
Most people of my age know of Debbie Does Dallas and Deep Throat, but couldn't name actresses from either. These were also the rare films, as most porn in the 60s and 70s was just people getting undressed and shagging. You might get the occasional plumber turning up to fix the fridge, or a pizza delivery boy, but that wasn't taken seriously and had mostly died out by the 80s.

Nowadays, many people know Angela White, Mia Khalifa, Lana Rhoades, Lena Paul, and hundreds of other top porn actresses. They have social media channels that fans follow, and video content all about their lives, both on camera and outside of work.
Things like OnlyFans became so popular precisely because it brings the human connection into it.

So it's not difficult to understand how thr French woman or the gangbang girl were objectified. A disturbing trend I've noticed is some women objectify themselves ie using male language to describe themselves.
A lot of women like being objectified.
A lot of men like it, too.
Often the only difference between healthy sexual activities and abusive or criminal ones is consent.

In my opinion two things happened to degrade porn, and influence how many people think about the sex.
Gonzo style porn. Which removed 90% of the empathy of sex. No scene build up. Just sex, and often rough.
This has been a thing since at least the 1700s. Plenty of evidence in contemporary 'naughty' books.
It's also more niche than you perhaps realise, while at the same time plenty of people like a trip to poundtown on occasion.

Kinks becoming normalised. A kink means something odd, unusual. But for some reason in the early 00's kinks were suddenly accepted as part of the regular sexual activities. I could list a few activities. But the main one I never understood why it suddenly became accepted was bdsm. Maybe it just went hand in hand with the lack of empathy and objectification.
BDSM is primarily about power play and the dynamic between partners.
Things like spanking and bondage again are centuries old, with texts from as early as 900 BC describing such things.
As with all things, the defining element is consent.

At least 40% of the population are into traditional 'kink' of some kind, and while it still suffers from Victorian style shaming into secrecy, people are tired of hiding it so it's becoming more normalised. High street shops like Victoria's Secret and Ann Summers quite openly stock BDSM stuff - Is it still a kink?
At one point the Kama Sutra, a 3,000 year old text, was a shocking (and thrilling) idea to Western society... whereas now people are widely considered crap in bed if they only know two positions.

But really, most people have a kink or a fetish of some kind. The modern world is just more honest about it.

I worry about where society is going with this dehumanisation, objectification, and a lack of empathy. It's seeped into every aspect of life. Many people talk at other people not to them.
That's not a porn thing, though. For the most porn reflects society, it doesn't drive it.
Look instead at how many people spend their lives with noses buried in their phones, instead of engaging with the people around them.

I sadly think more of the op subject will happen. Because it feels like more deviant activities are becoming normalised.
In many cases the 'deviant' activities already were pretty normalised, even among those who weren't into it themselves, and only became 'deviant' under a repressive society like the Victorians (who still maintained a secret culture of it anyway) and their repression has lasted well into the modern day.

Strangling, being tied up, and beaten etc I'd consider kinks. I'm not saying these things are wrong or bad between consenting adults. But they are a manifestation of someones dark mind.
Not really.
Again, it's a power exchange - It mostly appeals to people who are either not naturally dominant/submissive, or who spend a lot of their lives being such. CEOs, military commanders and other people in positions of authority often like to switch and be submissive, subservient or subordinate for a while. Similarly there are plenty of people who relish the idea of being in charge, even if it's only within the safety of their own bedroom.
 
I think that depends if people consider homosexuality natural. I do, especially when it also happens in the animal kingdom.

The point being - not too long ago it was considered un-natural (and still is by some people). Opinions and laws on many things change with time, in both directions. Age of consent would be a good example - it has went both up and down in the last 150 or so years in the UK as opinions and society changes.
 
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The point being - not too long ago it was considered un-natural (and still is by some people). Opinions and laws on many things change with time, in both directions. Age of consent would be a good example - it has went both up and down in the last 150 or so years in the UK as opinions and society changes.
I understood the point you are making. But what is it's relevance to the subject of the thread?

I think most people are outraged by it. By comparing it to homosexuality are you saying it'll eventually become acceptable?

Or was you comparing it to something else?
 
I understood the point you are making. But what is it's relevance to the subject of the thread?

I think most people are outraged by it. By comparing it to homosexuality are you saying it'll eventually become acceptable?

That all depends on what you mean by "are you saying it'll eventually become acceptable"

I was referring to your comment
Kinks becoming normalised. A kink means something odd, unusual.

There are lots of things considered a kink. Calling it a kink on the basis of it being "odd, unusual" is a tricky one as that is very much subjective to the individual. What you would consider "normal", I may consider as "odd, unusual" and vice versa.

That, in itself is not a problem as it's an individual opinion. Everyone has their own thing others would describe as a kink but to use the phrase "kinks becoming normalised" could be read that you are inferring that all the stuff you consider a kink is deemed as not normal or, in other words, weird/bad.

When you couple that with my first point (subjective to each individual) it gets trickier. Unless you are restricting the "kinks" in your argument to only the criminally illegal?
 
That all depends on what you mean by "are you saying it'll eventually become acceptable"

I was referring to your comment

There are lots of things considered a kink. Calling it a kink on the basis of it being "odd, unusual" is a tricky one as that is very much subjective to the individual. What you would consider "normal", I may consider as "odd, unusual" and vice versa.

That, in itself is not a problem as it's an individual opinion. Everyone has their own thing others would describe as a kink but to use the phrase "kinks becoming normalised" could be read that you are inferring that all the stuff you consider a kink is deemed as not normal or, in other words, weird/bad.

When you couple that with my first point (subjective to each individual) it gets trickier. Unless you are restricting the "kinks" in your argument to only the criminally illegal?
I'd consider a kink as something a person didn't need to do.

When I was a young man bdsm was a kink. It wasn't included with regular porn material. It would be in a specialist section along with water sports and dressing up etc.

I noticed in the early 00's bdsm spontaneously moved into the mainstream with clubs appearing that specialised in that. People would have lessons on rope work etc. There seemed to be levels of it. I call that a kink because it's not necessary. But people do it.

It became on par with swingers clubs. The colloquial term is called a munch.

I think my main question is how far off what is considered base level is humanity going to go? The further away the more objectification is required.

The problem with rape fantasies is how long until the urge for something real to happen going to become unbearable.

A lot of people caught with illegal images of children mostly go down to objectification path wanting more and more extreme material. It's already at a high number of people being caught.

Society seems to be heading towards sodom and gomorrah, were people don't realise what they are doing is wrong.
 
The colloquial term is called a munch.

No it’s not, a munch is a specific type of meet up for people into a certain or general kink that takes place in an every day environment where no one would know what it is you are meeting up for from the outside looking in. It’s called a munch because the first ones documenteded were held in fast food places and people would munch on food whilst meeting new people and discussing said interests.


Society seems to be heading towards sodom and gomorrah, were people don't realise what they are doing is wrong.

If two consenting adults are being safe and sane, then who is to say what activities are wrong or right for them to enjoy.

The minute you add in non consenting parties, such as children who can’t consent, rape, or other issues, then we have a real problem.

Conflating the two is wrong.
 
I'd consider a kink as something a person didn't need to do.
That covers one **** of a lot....
I mean, you don't need your hot wife to dress up in sexy lingerie, right....? Surely she herself, in her natural everyday form, should be enough for you?

When I was a young man bdsm was a kink. It wasn't included with regular porn material. It would be in a specialist section along with water sports and dressing up etc.
Yes, and now, like many other things, it's losing a lot of the stigma... This is how things go, and again have done so throughout history with ultimately no ill coming of it.
Henry VIII was utterly disgusted with the "filthy French embelishments" that his second wife Anne kept trying to coax him into, but these days I bet you most blokes wouldn't turn down a blow job.....!

I noticed in the early 00's bdsm spontaneously moved into the mainstream with clubs appearing that specialised in that. People would have lessons on rope work etc. There seemed to be levels of it.
So an ancient art, widely accepted and celebrated in Japan for both its origins and its romantic application, suddenly takes off in the Western mainstream and you think that's the root of all our evil?

I think my main question is how far off what is considered base level is humanity going to go? The further away the more objectification is required.
What you have not considered is that most of the people engaging in kink don't just do it with anybody. It's not a blind shag fest - You need consent from both parties, which first requires a LOT of trust and a pretty close relationship. Yes, one party is being objectified, but it's still just roleplay and ultimately is about that couple coming closer together than ever before.

The problem with rape fantasies is how long until the urge for something real to happen going to become unbearable.
No, the problem is people who can't understand, or don't care about, consent. This is another thing that's as old as time itself and nothing to do with modern porn bringing down Western society, or anything.
Rape and rapists have existed LONG before the internet. Even Shakespeare wrote about it.

Fantasists who consensually engage in roleplay are no more a problem to morality than playing dress-up in a nurse's outfit is to the competence of the healthcare profession.

A lot of people caught with illegal images of children mostly go down to objectification path wanting more and more extreme material. It's already at a high number of people being caught.
And they deserve to burn for it, or at least be mentally sectioned.
There's a strong difference between play-acting a fantasy, and doing something for real that you know is wrong.

Society seems to be heading towards sodom and gomorrah, were people don't realise what they are doing is wrong.
Pretty much all of them know. It's very rare to find one that doesn't.
The problem is part of the wider issue with people who feel entitled to everything, in all walks of life. Now IMO that's partly a result of both the instant gratification and disposable nature of our modern culture - You can Google up anything you want, and when you're done with it you can just ditch it and get the next thing within moments. I can order all kinds of stuff off Amazon and get it all the same day, for example, and you can be a megastar singer on YouTube only to find yourself yesterday's news mere minutes afterward.

No it’s not, a munch is a specific type of meet up for people into a certain or general kink that takes place in an every day environment where no one would know what it is you are meeting up for from the outside looking in. It’s called a munch because the first ones documenteded were held in fast food places and people would munch on food whilst meeting new people and discussing said interests.
It's generally just to meet the people and see if you get along. Most munches actually prohibit the discussion of anything kink-related, as you're in a public place and no-one wants to be 'outed' especially not on their own terms - Bedroom activities are still a taboo subject in general, even if you're the most boring shag on the planet.
 
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